Conflict in Darfur, Sudan - The Mega Thread

[Haggis]

Jack Layton will be all over this like stink on a monkey.  He'll spout the usual "now we can pull out of Afghanistan, right away, and go into Darfur to do the right thing" rhetoric.  This mission is "the right mission for Canada" he'll proclaim.

So what happens then in Afghanistan?  Stay tuned, folks!

 

[brihard]

Jack Layton will be all over this like stink on a monkey.  Now we can pull out of Afghanistan, right away, and go into Darfur to "do the right thing".  This mission is "the right mission for Canada".

So what happens then in Afghanistan?  Stay tuned, folks!

I think your prediction is exactly right. This will be a focus of the next campaign, particularly from the NDP.

Not that I'm at all against a mission in Darfur- but right now it's not something we could manage.

 

[Haggis]

Not that I'm at all against a mission in Darfur- but right now it's not something we could manage.

Correct.  Given the propsoed numbers this could be a sizable contingent, almost on the scope of Op PALLADIUIM.  The trouble is that we are in an either/or situation.  We have the horsepower to contribute to only one "big" sized mision at a time without significant Reserve augmentation.

 

[HItorMiss]

OH here we go........ :

 

[Quag]

Not that I'm at all against a mission in Darfur- but right now it's not something we could manage.

I agree completely with this statement.  Something should be done in Sudan, but we simply cannot contribute at this time.

 

[brihard]

I agree completely with this statement.  Something should be done in Sudan, but we simply cannot contribute at this time.

Wise leadership would attempt to get as many of the troops as possible from black African nations; impress upon the Sudanese government that there is much support for this in their own regional neighborhood. That said, the NDP will of course be shouting for a retasking of the VanDoos, practicality notwithstanding.

I would also anticipate major contribution from south west and south east Asian nations... if I recall correctly, Pakistan and Bangladesh have been pretty decent about contributing to past missions- they at least have some experience to go on.

 

[Quag]

I agree.  Actually, call me crazy, but I did some reading into the issue, and part of the problem was that at one time the Darfur government would only allow black African soldiers to intervene.  Am I out to lunch here?

 

[davidk]

I would also anticipate major contribution from south west and south east Asian nations... if I recall correctly, Pakistan and Bangladesh have been pretty decent about contributing to past missions- they at least have some experience to go on.

Pakistan and Bangladesh contribute in great numbers because it pays the bills. They may have experience, but I'd hesitate to say that they'd be the troops I'd want for the mission...

 

[armyvern]

Whooo...

I'm pensionable on on 12 Jan. Somehow, today ... with this ... the date feels closer!!

You just know what's going to happen with this ...

 

[Haggis]

OH here we go........ :

You know I speak the truth. 

Maybe I should've been clearer.  The Cbt Arms are not the problem, though.  There's loads of bayonets who would/could go (Reg and Res).  It's the CSS world that's woefully short of pers and, as you know, the CSS makes up more than half of the A'stan contingent. 

 

[The Bread Guy]

Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.

Canada willing to send aid to Darfur; troops doubtful
Murray Brewster, Canadian Press, 31 Jul 07
Article link

OTTAWA (CP) - The federal government appears willing to send more humanitarian aid to the war-ravaged Darfur region of Sudan, but it's not saying if Canada will contribute troops to a peacekeeping mission approved Tuesday.

International Co-operation Minister Josee Verner, who's in charge of the Canadian International Development Agency (CIDA), said the Conservative government has not yet been asked to contribute more food or soldiers to the international effort.

"We are ready to respond to any requests in terms of humanitarian assistance," she said following a news conference Tuesday to announce a separate aid commitment to Africa.

She deferred questions about troops to either Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor or Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay, both of whom were unavailable.

Verner announced CIDA is setting aside $125 million over five years for a UN-sponsored school food program, but the money will spent in African countries other than Sudan.

A spokesman for MacKay said it will be a few days before the UN issues formal requests for support and until then the government wasn't going to speculate.

"Canada is already quite active in the region," said Andre LeMay.

"What are they going to ask us for? We don't know."

The UN Security Council approved plans Tuesday to send a peacekeeping force to Darfur. The resolution is co-sponsored by Britain and France and would see the deployment of about 26,000 troops in Sudan's western region.

When it's up and running later this year, it will be the international body's largest peacekeeping force.

Troops belonging to an African Union force have not been able to stop the violence said to have left 200,000 dead and two million homeless.

The resolution gives UN troops the power to use force to protect civilians and aid workers from violence. In addition, there is call for peace talks to proceed.

There are 31 Canadian Forces members currently serving in Sudan as part of a UN mission. Most of them are military observers deployed throughout the southern region of the country. Six soldiers serve as staff officers at UN Headquarters in Khartoum and El Obeid, Sudan.

(POSTER NOTE:  Is this from the CF Operations web page on Sudan here out of date, then, or did the reporter not check?)

Opposition parties have repeatedly criticized the Conservative government for not paying more attention to the crisis in Darfur. At the one point, the NDP even suggested Canadian troops be pulled out of fighting in Afghanistan and redeployed to Darfur as peacekeepers.

Gen. Rick Hillier, the chief of defence staff, has said the army has it's hands full keeping up with the Afghan deployment and doesn't have the troops to spare for missions elsewhere.

Verner said Canada spends $59 million a year on aid to western Sudan, making it the third largest recipient of Canadian international aid. Afghanistan is the No. 1 recipient.

The executive director of the UN's World Food Program, Josette Sheeran, said no one should underestimate the contribution Canada has made to easing the suffering of people driven from their homes in Darfur.

"Our program feeds two million (people) a day in Darfur," she said. "If we weren't there with the support of the government of Canada and others, those people would starve."

Sheeran insisted the UN has seen some successes in the region which erupted in fighting in 2003. The agency believes it's been able to cut acute malnutrition by half.

She also praised Canada's separate renewal of its school food program. In the past, Canada has contributed to similar feeding programs in Ethiopia, Mali, Senegal and Tanzania, among others.

Sheeran says the pledge is important to help the UN agency plan for the long-term.



Meanwhile, here are links to UN News Service story,  UN Sec Gen statement, and Security Council news release - official resolution to follow when posted to UN site

 

[Franko]

Besides, the AU has stated in the past that it does not want non-African forces deployed in significant numbers to Darfur.

They see it as an Africa Union problem and want to take care of it themselves. I say have at 'er.

Regards

 

[CBH99]

I don't mean to sound overly or unrealistically optimistic, but having just returned from Sudan a month ago - I think I can comment.

From a threat perspective, the threat from Sudanese troops & Janjaweed isn't very much at all.  The government backed troops all wear uniforms (Identification is relatively easy, compared to enemies in Iraq & Afghanistan) - and aren't very well equipped at all.  Despite the rhetoric of arms sales from China, most of them don't even have basic motor transport.  They do have access to some old, ragged pickups - and a FEW new land rovers - but all in all, they go on foot just about everywhere they go.  They use old, poorly maintained Russian weaponry, and their training is next to nil.

The Janjaweed often ride on horseback, and are well documented in the documentary that just came out called "The Devil Came on Horseback" - produced by a retired Marine who was deployed to Darfur as an observer.  (The name is escaping me right now, sorry).  They often ride on camels and donkeys, and don't typically have access to motor transport either.  (Any trucks or jeeps are typically used by government troops).

As for heavy weaponry, the Sudanese air force is somewhat well equipped on paper.  They have access to an undisclosed number of MI-24 Hinds, as well as various cargo aircraft.  A document depicting their air force numbers can be found here:

http://www.angelfire.com/ab/mazin/SudanAirForce.html

The entire time I was in Sudan, I never saw one fast moving tactical fighter - and I was near military installations for a vast majority of the trip.  One common understanding amongst many interested persons is that their air force suffers from a huge lack of spare parts and attrition, and has chronic problems securing spare parts, training, and maintenance for their air force.  They have painted some of their cargo planes a UN white scheme, however this lack of spare parts and training has kept a vast majority of their aircraft grounded.  Due to harsh weather conditions, many of their aircraft are unairworthy (Sand & Dust like you wouldn't believe, mixed with sandstorms straight out of the movies) - so even if they magically acquired training, maintenance, spare parts, etc, etc - the aircraft wouldn't fly anyhow.  (I saw an MI24 Hind that was almost completely buried in sand, to give you an idea...)

The real problem for any UN/AU force that deploys there isn't going to be a challenge from the Janjaweed & government troops.  Their numbers are in the 20,000 range - however most of them are deployed outside of Darfur, throughout the rest of Sudan.  Many of those troops border Chad, Ethiopia, and Eritrea - where tensions have been brewing lately due to concerns over the situation in Darfur.  So, out of the 20,000 person force at the disposal of Khartoum, most of it is preoccupied at the borders.

As I said above, the main challenge for any UN/AU force isn't going to be an armed threat from the goverment troops & Janjaweed.  What is going to be a real challenge is the terrain (As mentioned, lots of sand & dust) - VERY little water - and MILLIONS of displaced persons.  Something that not many people know, but is a HUGE challenge in dealing with this problem, is there is a pre-meditated "repopulation" of Darfur occuring right now, as Arabs quickly move in and set up villages.

Millions of people have been forced to evacuate the Darfur area, due to the violence.  Something most people don't realize though is that Sudan has formally encouraged Arabs living in neighbouring countries to move back to Sudan, and repopulate Darfur.  So even when the government troops are pushed back and the area is made safe, there is nowhere to go for the millions of people who were forced from their homes.  The area where they once called home has now been resettled by Arabs, leaving a lingering question:  What do we do with the millions of people who now have no home country, and no place to return to?

The challenges that face the UN/AU troops are numberous, no doubt.  They face more humantarian challenges than they do military challenges though, and it is going to be interesting to see how the international community figures this one out.  The international community has ignored this problem for so long that it is now going to be almost impossible to come up with a easy-to-apply solution.  Some out of the box thinking is definately going to be required.

As for the Canadian Forces contribution, I honestly don't see the CF straining to make a committment.  As stated before, the CF only has enough horsepower to support one "big" operation at a time.  However, the CF would most likely not need to commit a sizeable contingent to the UN mission in Darfur, it simply wouldn't be needed.  Most of the work that will be done will be reconstruction, humanitarian, and enforcement of any progress that is made - something that can be done by other countries.  From my experience on the ground, I surely doubt there will be much of a military conflict at all.  (I wish I could go into a lot more detail, and tell you guys everything I experienced and witnessed while there, but that would take a helluva long time.)

It'll be interesting to see how this one works out...

 

[Franko]

CBH99,

So do you think the LRA and the SPLA are still factions which the UN and AU forces will have to contend with at the same time as the Darfur problem?

As far as I know Joseph Koney is still at large and wanted for atrocities as well as adding instability to their neighbors to the south in Uganda

Thoughts?

Regards

 

[GAP]

Does anyone want to bet that one of the suggestions will be that we (NATO) let Germany leave, as it looks to be doing, and go to Darfur, and that Canada, who has done so much in Kandahar, take a rest and do the German's assignment in Afghanistan. This should make a good soundbite for Jack.

CBH99, nice to have some real live input from someone with boots on the ground....

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Who will take our post?

 

[3rd Herd]

Some thoughts,
okay Jack gets his wish,we cut and run from Afghanistan. I see a major creditability issue looming. GAP brought up an interesting idea in the Germans. For one the professional army has respect going back almost a hundred years. Next the Germans were not historically a colonial power in Africa. Therefore there is none of that colonization perception. Reading CBH99 post it comes to mind the Germans were very quick to adapt successfully to the geographic conditions about sixty years ago. Finally it would give the German military itself a big boost.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Next the Germans were not historically a colonial power in Africa. Therefore there is none of that colonization perception.

Togoland - http://www.mgtrust.org/togo.htm

Togoland (now Togo) was a German possession pre-1914

Cameroon - http://www.mgtrust.org/cam.htm

The German colony of Cameroon had French Equatorial Africa to the north and British Nigeria to the west.

German East Africa - http://www.mgtrust.org/gea.htm

German East Africa comprised the territory occupied today by Rwanda, Burundi and Tanzania.

German SW Africa - http://www.mgtrust.org/gswa.htm

German colony of South West Africa (now Namibia)

 

[3rd Herd]

Yeah I was waitting for that Micheal. In part it goes back to the German "political loss" of WW1. Up until the news of the armistice was signed there were still winning. They did not lose through force of arms, they lost through politics. Also to a certain extent their colonial management ideology worked in a varied manner. One was a measure of respect to the coloureds, not equal status but still a difference from other empire builders.Further differences include the use of corporal punishment, Germans had a reluctance to use this. Again back to 1914-1918 look at the native troops that fought with the Germans, they could have disappeared as has happened with both the British and French. The Germans in the second for the most part had an excellent relationship with tribal/ethnic groupings in the Saharan/ Nile area. Partly because either the British or Italians with their Anglo/Roman superiority made any change more appealling. To reiterate in both cases the military was for the most part correct and professional.

German Colonies were also established in the Pacific and China.

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

You know I speak the truth. 

Maybe I should've been clearer.  The Cbt Arms are not the problem, though.  There's loads of bayonets who would/could go (Reg and Res).  It's the CSS world that's woefully short of pers and, as you know, the CSS makes up more than half of the A'stan contingent. 

not quite the R22er is 60 pers short (CBTA) for thier upcoming roto and searching the army with a fine tooth comb to find the troops,  LFWA is in the same boat with TFA 1-08, the problem is and I dare say this reservists (at least out west) are finally getting tired of the old rhetoric "deployment not employment" only to get to the trg base and find they are now in a replacement pool. (Track 4 for TFA 1-08 is currently 100 All arms short)