CMMA - replacing the CP140 Aurora

[childs56]

The RCAF has to change (lots of old dogs don’t/can’t learn an FMS) but there is a whole bunch more to flying a P8 than a 737NG from YEG to YYZ.

I agree. Pilots are usually a smart crowd who can learn new skills. No one in the CAF has flown a P8, I would say a qualified experienced 737 pilot might have a leg up on a P3 pilot or even a new one out of training.

Does your typical airline pilot operate an armament panel and drop stores or weapons? Do they understand ASW and ASUW tactics?

Nope, a few airline pilots are ex military, again most are pretty smart and very trainable and adaptable. A select few fly Firefighting aircraft who have select drop stores panels.

Can they employ defensive countermeasures to avoid being shot down?

training.

Do they typically turn and burn at 250kts, 200ft AGL at night, 1000NM offshore?

If they had the chance, a few of those heavy commercial pilots were bush pilots. You really don't want to know some of the things they have done.

Some things need to change. Somethings are the way they are because we learned those lessons in blood.

Yet training can be modified to bring on more pilots from different backgrounds. Lessons learned in blood goes many ways. One way that really scares me is the lack of skilled pilots to go around. As that skill set fades from the Military side of things here in Canada it should make many people worried.

 

[childs56]

I know there was a article written a couple of years ago by a US Pilot describing how the training for the F35 was majority in simulator before flying the actual jet. The transition from simulator to jet was simple and generally flawless.
He also stated that they could fly simulator missions of their actual mission before they went live. He said that had many benefits as you could see the terrain and target prior to actually flying it.

One thing is if the Airforce does not figure out a more streamlined way to keep aircrews trained we wont be needing any.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I agree. Pilots are usually a smart crowd who can learn new skills. No one in the CAF has flown a P8, I would say a qualified experienced 737 pilot might have a leg up on a P3 pilot or even a new one out of training.

Nope, a few airline pilots are ex military, again most are pretty smart and very trainable and adaptable. A select few fly Firefighting aircraft who have select drop stores panels.

training.

If they had the chance, a few of those heavy commercial pilots were bush pilots. You really don't want to know some of the things they have done.

Yet training can be modified to bring on more pilots from different backgrounds. Lessons learned in blood goes many ways. One way that really scares me is the lack of skilled pilots to go around. As that skill set fades from the Military side of things here in Canada it should make many people worried.

I respectfully disagree with nearly everything that you have written.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I know there was a article written a couple of years ago by a US Pilot describing how the training for the F35 was majority in simulator before flying the actual jet. The transition from simulator to jet was simple and generally flawless.
He also stated that they could fly simulator missions of their actual mission before they went live. He said that had many benefits as you could see the terrain and target prior to actually flying it.

One thing is if the Airforce does not figure out a more streamlined way to keep aircrews trained we wont be needing any.

What makes you think the RCAF does not believe in simulators?

 

[childs56]

I respectfully disagree with nearly everything that you have written.

Why?

 

[childs56]

What makes you think the RCAF does not believe in simulators?

I know they do, they were one of the leading groups to push some of the more modern simulators and their uses.
I also know we have lagged behind in how they are implemented due to the backlog of training and availability

Our Armored Corps could do with a few Simulator setups across the country on mass.

 

[Good2Golf]

I know they do, they were one of the leading groups to push some of the more modern simulators and their uses.
I also know we have lagged behind in how they are implemented due to the backlog of training and availability

What fleets are you talking about? Newer fleets (at least C-130J and CH-147F) are leading edge including inter-fleet integration and tactical scenario execution, well beyond the kind of *YYC-YYZ stuff others have been lauding on civvie FFS…

 

[Furniture]

The RCAF has to change (lots of old dogs don’t/can’t learn an FMS) but there is a whole bunch more to flying a P8 than a 737NG from YEG to YYZ. Does your typical airline pilot operate an armament panel and drop stores or weapons? Do they understand ASW and ASUW tactics? Can they employ defensive countermeasures to avoid being shot down? Do they typically turn and burn at 250kts, 200ft AGL at night, 1000NM offshore?

Some things need to change. Somethings are the way they are because we learned those lessons in blood.

How much is the CAF assuming that filthy civilian pilot's are too stupid to learn those "high speed" skillz vs. the reality that if a person can learn to fly an airplane in North America, they are likely capable of learning the other skills as required, over time.

How many of the problems in the CAF are caused by people inside the system refusing to acknowledge that they are too close to the issues to have an accurate read on them? How much is ego getting in the way of progress?

My occupation is failing because we dumped too much training, too soon, on people with zero experience. We expected 1 year Avrs to be 20 year Sgts. The people tasked with fixing the problem have come back with the bright idea to put more training earlier in the career... They see the problem, but are too close to see what is causing the problem.

I'm not suggesting less training for aircrew, I'm simp,y suggesting that the CAF way is failing. Looking outside, and trying to draw in civilian experience/lessons learned is likely better than continuing down the current path.

 

[childs56]

What fleets are you talking about? Newer fleets (at least C-130J and CH-147F) are leading edge including inter-fleet integration and tactical scenario execution, well beyond the kind of YYG-YYZ stuff others have been lauding on civvie FFS…

How many of those simulators do we have or have direct access to? What types of simulators are they? Full motion, Desk etc. I bet not that many.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

How much is the CAF assuming that filthy civilian pilot's are too stupid to learn those "high speed" skillz vs. the reality that if a person can learn to fly an airplane in North America, they are likely capable of learning the other skills as required, over time.

How many of the problems in the CAF are caused by people inside the system refusing to acknowledge that they are too close to the issues to have an accurate read on them? How much is ego getting in the way of progress?

My occupation is failing because we dumped too much training, too soon, on people with zero experience. We expected 1 year Avrs to be 20 year Sgts. The people tasked with fixing the problem have come back with the bright idea to put more training earlier in the career... They see the problem, but are too close to see what is causing the problem.

I'm not suggesting less training for aircrew, I'm simp,y suggesting that the CAF way is failing. Looking outside, and trying to draw in civilian experience/lessons learned is likely better than continuing down the current path.

It is not about stupid or smart. Anybody can learn anything, with enough time and money.

We don’t have time or money.

The argument is that it is “easy” to make an airline pilot into a P8 pilot, straight away.

I am putting nearly 20 years of tactical ASW experience into calling “bullshit”. Flying the airplane is literally the easiest piece. Coordinating a crew of 9-14 while trying to nail submarine while avoid getting nailed yourself takes years of formal training and mentorship to make aircraft captain and crew commander. Sure, airline guys can do it. They just have to follow the process.

Maybe that makes me to close to the problem…

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Why?

Because nearly everyone one of your points are hot garbage that betray your complete lack of actual military flying experience.

 

[childs56]

Because nearly everyone one of your points are hot garbage that betray your complete lack of actual military flying experience.

Which points exactly, that pilots are smart, or none of our pilots have flown the P8, or that a few commercial pilots who were Bush pilots have some mad skills.
What's hot garbage?
I am curious and open for a good discussion. But vague responses leaves me to believe I offended you and your skills.

 

[Kirkhill]

It is not about stupid or smart. Anybody can learn anything, with enough time and money.

We don’t have time or money.

The argument is that it is “easy” to make an airline pilot into a P8 pilot, straight away.

I am putting nearly 20 years of tactical ASW experience into calling “bullshit”. Flying the airplane is literally the easiest piece. Coordinating a crew of 9-14 while trying to nail submarine while avoid getting nailed yourself takes years of formal training and mentorship to make aircraft captain and crew commander. Sure, airline guys can do it. They just have to follow the process.

Maybe that makes me to close to the problem…

So start them out flying Challengers, MRTTs, Hercs and C17s on bread and butter runs from hardstand to hardstand?

Could they pick up the tactical side if they were willing to put in the hours?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

So start them out flying Challengers, MRTTs, Hercs and C17s on bread and butter runs from hardstand to hardstand?

Could they pick up the tactical side if they were willing to put in the hours?

Sure.

Point me to an airline pilot who is going to leave that for the RCAF.

Seriously.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Going back several decades, we were being given a VIP tour at CAE in Montreal and a combat simulator due for delivery was being flown by a major from the Luftwaffe. The simulator was stationary, motion was implied via an air cushion with hundreds of pockets that applied pressure as appropriate with control input. When the simulation ceased the major emerged white faced and shaking. He had been shot down during a low level run down the Ruhr valley and he had believed it. That was 35 years ago. I am certain that simulation has improved dramatically since then. Simulation is only restricted by the limits of the person writing the programme and that includes low level flying over the Atlantic in Force 5 weather.


S

Being shot at in a sim with MANPADS and hearing “guns guns guns” over the ICS during a mission in Syria were not the same experience for me; YMMV.

“Only restricted by the limits of the person writing the programme”.

How about funding?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

No one in the CAF has flown a P8,

That is incorrect.

I would say a qualified experienced 737 pilot might have a leg up on a P3 pilot

I’d say it is likely the other way around. The P-3 type gets the CRM and tactical side; “flying” is the easier part IMO.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

How much is the CAF assuming that filthy civilian pilot's are too stupid to learn those "high speed" skillz vs. the reality that if a person can learn to fly an airplane in North America, they are likely capable of learning the other skills as required, over time.

Not at all; it’s more a reality of the civie Pilot part time ability to get thru the training and then maintain the category and currency requirements (which are the exact same for Reg and Res).

It works for people going Reg to Res, reasonably well in our fleet.

How many of the problems in the CAF are caused by people inside the system refusing to acknowledge that they are too close to the issues to have an accurate read on them? How much is ego getting in the way of progress?

Flip side; the people on the inside understand all the issues instead of making a myopic argument about a more complex problem…

My occupation is failing because we dumped too much training, too soon, on people with zero experience. We expected 1 year Avrs to be 20 year Sgts. The people tasked with fixing the problem have come back with the bright idea to put more training earlier in the career... They see the problem, but are too close to see what is causing the problem.

That’s not comparable to the civie/military 737/P8 issue though…

I'm not suggesting less training for aircrew, I'm simp,y suggesting that the CAF way is failing. Looking outside, and trying to draw in civilian experience/lessons learned is likely better than continuing down the current path.

The RCAF is failing at training aircrew? Where did that come from?

 

[Ostrozac]

No one in the CAF has flown a P8

Untrue. The first RCAF pilot qualified on the P8 in 2019, on exchange with an RAAF squadron.

 

[childs56]

Untrue. The first RCAF pilot qualified on the P8 in 2019, on exchange with an RAAF squadron.

How many more are currently type certified? I figured there was one or two that had flown it.
But wanted discussion into the subject.

 

[Furniture]

Not at all; it’s more a reality of the civie Pilot part time ability to get thru the training and then maintain the category and currency requirements (which are the exact same for Reg and Res).

Are the current training and currency requirements too restrictive? Is it something that actually required, or is it a risk adverse CAF requirement?

I'm not suggesting I know for sure, but is it something people have seriously considered, rather that throw out as a reason things can't change?

Flip side; the people on the inside understand all the issues instead of making a myopic argument about a more complex problem…

I'm not suggesting people outside have all the answers. I'm suggesting that people too close to a problem tend to have a myopic view of solutions....

That’s not comparable to the civie/military 737/P8 issue though…

That wasn't the point, the point was to highlight the myopic view people too close to an issue tend to take.

The RCAF is failing at training aircrew? Where did that come from?

It was a slightly hyperbolic statement about the state of training in the RCAF. It hasn't completely failed, but it does certainly seem to be failing at getting enough people through quickly enought.

If that isn't the case I expect to see a vigorous defence of the training system in all of the other threads and comments when someone suggests the RCAF is struggling to produce enough of any aircrew occupations.