CMMA - replacing the CP140 Aurora

[Kirkhill]

Where to start?......

First Bombardier.....As a part of receiving government help and financing over the years Bombardier was not to become a defence contractor. (No AVRO again) They could not develop Defence only products period. With the relative recent paring back of the corporation to just biz jets they are freed of that commitment. Also Bombardier's only short to medium growth areas are Gov, Defence and special mission areas. So there is the push. Now add the political aspect of current Government, Laurentian elite and Quebec Inc. pure hate of Boeing and here we are.

Other points, one example going back years Kory Teneycke (well he is the one that told me) wanted to "buy Canadian" with defence procurement, he even said even it cost 3 times as much. (this is the basis of National Shipbuilding Program) The thinking was that that it would help build a natural Conservative base in with a large Canadian MIC. The Harper government did start down this path but a recession, Afgan war and budget realities came first. Plus the realization that many of the workers were CAW (now UNIFOR) and their leaders are very much NDP/LIberals. Add to the fact that Liberals for years have work the opposite plan. Example Bombardier.

Plus there is a look that the current political parts of the gov want to push any real programs to the right.

Not talking about trying to flog abysmal defence projects. Talking about selling stuff that people want to buy....stuff that is already being manufactured in Canada and being sold for profit overseas.

I could add to my list above Oshawa built pickup trucks by GM.

We make good stuff. There are opportunitis to boost those sales.

Even if DND doesnt need or want the gear themselves they can make a profit selling Canadian goods overseas.

 

[KevinB]

Back to the business of replacing the Aurora.

Swap.

This is the kind of Industrial Transfer Benefits I can support.

Embraer C-390 Millennium - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Brazil swaps C-390s for Swedish Gripens and for Indian howitzers and Medium Range SAMs.

After listening to Flynn's commentary about the advantages of paying the 10% commission on Foreign Military Sales perhaps we would be better off pursuing Government to Government contracts rather than Government to Business contracts. Apparently the FMS approach comes with more market support.

Government of Canada agrees to buy F35s with market support from US DoD.
Government of Canada agrees to sell GDLS LAVs, Rheinmetall AD, Rheinmetall PATH autonomy kits and UGVs, GDOTS 81mm, 84mm, 105mm and 155mm rounds, wings, engines, landing gear, fuses, shotguns ....

The regime is already in place.

Report on exports of military goods from Canada - 2022

www.international.gc.ca

You need to be careful taking FMS Sale data at face value.

Depending on what you are buying the FMS route may be the only way to get the option you want, it also may be much cheaper (the price being higher than the US Mil price due to the ‘commission’ the service takes, but also factors in the US DoD is generally buying a lot more than any one country would buy).

With FMS buys you don’t get the ability to customize the system, you get what the DoD gets, but generally that’s what most people should buy anyway, and you can get spares, training support etc in a package deal.

Buying direct from the Manufacturer can potentially be cheaper depending on what you are buying and how it’s structured, sometimes you can work a deal out to get a new model that has buy in from the USG, that will allow for everyone to benefit.

 

[Spencer100]

Not talking about trying to flog abysmal defence projects. Talking about selling stuff that people want to buy....stuff that is already being manufactured in Canada and being sold for profit overseas.

I could add to my list above Oshawa built pickup trucks by GM.

We make good stuff. There are opportunitis to boost those sales.

Even if DND doesnt need or want the gear themselves they can make a profit selling Canadian goods overseas.

Current stuff is supported by CCC. But Canada itself is sometimes not a great supplier. IE Bell helos to PH, LAV to the house of Saud, etc.

Oh and GM in Canada. The pickup trucks built in Oshawa are just assembled its just an overflow plant. The current stamping plant on site just presses past model service parts. GM received billions to convert CAMI in Ingersoll and Oshawa to EV. Then moved the production to Mexico. The Equinox one of the better sellers and its home base was Ingersoll but they moved it to Ramos, 250,000 units to change the plant over to Brightdrop and 50,000 units but in reality zero units. Now GM (and everyone else) is putting the breaks on EV production. (wow would have ever guessed?) So the CAMI plant is siting doing almost nothing.

Oh and this in Brightdrop. The Brightdrop President just moved on too. Take this to battle!



So the Canadian government paid GM to lighten their footprint in Canada. A goal of GM (and others) for years! Good work Trudeau and Unifor.

 

[Gorgo]

By the looks of things, the Poseidon's being sole-sourced:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/procurement-new-surveillance-military-planes-1.7042751

 

[KevinB]

By the looks of things, the Poseidon's being sole-sourced:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/procurement-new-surveillance-military-planes-1.7042751

Was way too late to back out at this point, glad it seems to finally have come through.

 

[lenaitch]

It ain't over 'til it's over. "Will award" isn't a done deal yet. There's still time for media work and arm twisting. Even after it's awarded, they can pester procurement oversight bodies, trade tribunals, the government in waiting. The opportunities are endless. I'm not saying they could necessarily stop it but delay it enough to enter it into the competition for the 'worst procurement in history', or whatever some politician called the Cyclone fiasco. Government have shown that they are not adverse to paying millions in broken contracts charges.

 

[KevinB]

It ain't over 'til it's over. "Will award" isn't a done deal yet. There's still time for media work and arm twisting. Even after it's awarded, they can pester procurement oversight bodies, trade tribunals, the government in waiting. The opportunities are endless. I'm not saying they could necessarily stop it but delay it enough to enter it into the competition for the 'worst procurement in history', or whatever some politician called the Cyclone fiasco. Government have shown that they are not adverse to paying millions in broken contracts charges.

It’s way too late (for several months now) down here, given some of the commitments already made by the GoC on this.

 

[lenaitch]

It’s way too late (for several months now) down here, given some of the commitments already made by the GoC on this.

Then good, so long as it doesn't turn into us buying a small number of Boeings and spend the rest on a home-grown 'paper' aircraft twenty years and several more million from now.

 

[armrdsoul77]

Just like Trudeau getting some points by vowing to not buy the F35 so could Poilievre do something similiar at this time for some points especially if they make it seem like the US is twisting our arm or bring up Boeing Cseries aspect. Hay to be made.

 

[Quirky]

so could Poilievre do something similiar at this time for some points

He could just call the P-8 a "Cadillac".

 

[Good2Golf]

Just like Trudeau getting some points by vowing to not buy the F35 so could Poilievre do something similiar at this time for some points especially if they make it seem like the US is twisting our arm or bring up Boeing Cseries aspect. Hay to be made.

Why would a Conservative feel compelled to make Liberal hay? Poilievre will likely stay focused on getting the most appropriate implementation of a declared requirement…which happens to keep Canada aligned with the other four of the FVEYs.

 

[suffolkowner]

Looks like tomorrows the day but I wonder if Bombardier gets a consolation prize?

 

[dapaterson]

Looks like tomorrows the day but I wonder if Bombardier gets a consolation prize?

The VIP fleet (business jets) is aging...

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The VIP fleet (business jets) is aging...

And a perfectly fit for purpose contract for them.

 

[dapaterson]

Let's be honest; if you were uncertain about "Bombardier or Boeing", knowing that the former commander of the RCAF, LGen (retired) Mike Hood, is speaking on behalf of Bombardier should be decisive in persuading you that Boeing is the way to go.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

LaughingBy the looks of things, the Poseidon's being sole-sourced:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/procurement-new-surveillance-military-planes-1.7042751

“Bombardier joined forces with rival General Dynamics to provide the Royal Canadian Air Force with a new Multi-Mission Aircraft, which is a militarized version of its Global 6500 with submarine-hunting technology developed in Canada. The company has said it can meet whatever deadline the government reasonably sets for initial delivery, including 2030.”

 

[dimsum]

“Bombardier joined forces with rival General Dynamics to provide the Royal Canadian Air Force with a new Multi-Mission Aircraft, which is a militarized version of its Global 6500 with submarine-hunting technology developed in Canada. The company has said it can meet whatever deadline the government reasonably sets for initial delivery, including 2030.”

They didn’t specify 2030 CE though.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

OdThey didn’t specify 2030 CE though.

Ohhh, good catch!!

 

[calculus]

Why not give them a contract for a few GlobalEyes, to fill the holes in the NWS? Could come from the NORAD upgrade budget.

 

[KevinB]

Why not give them a contract for a few GlobalEyes, to fill the holes in the NWS? Could come from the NORAD upgrade budget.

Why? What role is that going to fill that doesn’t add another fleet and the consequences of that.