CMMA - replacing the CP140 Aurora

[suffolkowner]

Is the P-8 unsuitable for SAR or just a poor choice. Is there a need for another platform to take the strain off the ASW? Does it have to be manned? Is it more economical to run another platform. SAR would seem to be a secondary job at best and if the CC-295's problems arent resolved by the time the Aurora's replacement reaches IOC then we have other problems as well

 

[Good2Golf]

It has nothing to do about them selling something they make. It's now about the total destruction of Canada ever having a global OEM airframer. Boeing started the ball rolling and it lead to the implosion of the company.

The inconvenient truth turns out the Bombardier was looking to dump the C-Series anyway. If they hadn’t been, they wouldn’t have jumped all over Airbus’s offer to assume all rights and obligations building the C100/300. Bombardier wanted to streamline to the always lucrative/high profit activity of business jets, hence why they retained the Global Express/Challenger products (and would do so to their deaths).

Was Boeing a catalyst? Yes. Was Boeing the cause of Canada’s aeronautical welfare system being taken down a notch? Not by a long shot.

 

[dimsum]

We are but SAR was part of the solicitation request.

Yeah, but that’s only because the P-3 (and Aurora) can drop a SKAD.

Technically any CAF aircraft or ship is a secondary SAR asset. It doesn’t mean it has to do all the SAR related tasks.

 

[Spencer100]

The inconvenient truth turns out the Bombardier was looking to dump the C-Series anyway. If they hadn’t been, they wouldn’t have jumped all over Airbus’s offer to assume all rights and obligations building the C100/300. Bombardier wanted to streamline to the always lucrative/high profit activity of business jets, hence why they retained the Global Express/Challenger products (and would do so to their deaths).

Was Boeing a catalyst? Yes. Was Boeing the cause of Canada’s aeronautical welfare system being taken down a notch? Not by a long shot.

Yes 100% but my point is that there is a mindset in Ottawa/Montreal that Boeing was the bad guy. So I am putting my bet down now that as long as Justin Libs are government nothing with be move forward on this file. One they can point to the CP-140 upgrade right now. Two say we are looking at options. Then run the clock out on the P-8 magically say see not available. Then do a COTS buy (Airbus) with someone integrating a sensor suite for a Canadian special in the 2030 timeframe. Success!

 

[Good2Golf]

Yes 100% but my point is that there is a mindset in Ottawa/Montreal that Boeing was the bad guy.

Tracking that, but not 100% believe that Boeing was the baddy here. Many in industry knew it was exactly as I noted above. The Govt can remain as delusional as it wishes…

So I am putting my bet down now that as long as Justin Libs are government nothing with be move forward on this file. One they can point to the CP-140 upgrade right now. Two say we are looking at options. Then run the clock out on the P-8 magically say see not available. Then do a COTS buy (Airbus) with someone integrating a sensor suite for a Canadian special in the 2030 timeframe. Success!

I think that while that may be their position, they will soon find that there are “other factors at play” and they will see that the situation may warrant pragmatic reconsideration and pursuit of other options…

 

[KevinB]

Canada is buying P-8’s and the sooner as the Canadian Government accepts that directive the sooner other issues can be dealt with.

So I gather from the PSpec there that the Kingfisher has been OBE, but also that two platforms may be acquired.

So more J Herc’s and P-8’s - let’s light this fuse and call it a day.

 

[Spencer100]

Thread highjacking....

Boeing is not in the good books for a totally different reason. (Nothing to with Bombardier)

Boeing certification troubles in Canada ground 1st WestJet freighters

Canada’s WestJet plans to start flying cargo jets next year after a frustrating wait to get the planes registered.

www.freightwaves.com

 

[Good2Golf]

Thread highjacking....

Boeing is not in the good books for a totally different reason. (Nothing to with Bombardier)

Boeing certification troubles in Canada ground 1st WestJet freighters

Canada’s WestJet plans to start flying cargo jets next year after a frustrating wait to get the planes registered.

www.freightwaves.com

So, FAA is giving Boeing the gears due to the MAX issue, delaying Boeing’s entirely unrelated SB release needed for TC to rubber stamp the mod for use in Canada, for an engineering mod effectively identical to that which ALE implemented an STC for TC’s approval to use similar mods on -800s in Canada. Sounds like an FAA/TC cockblock, not Boeing not doing the work (which was done and delivered while the FAA slow-rolls Boeing’s SB).

 

[YZT580]

Canada is buying P-8’s and the sooner as the Canadian Government accepts that directive the sooner other issues can be dealt with.

So I gather from the PSpec there that the Kingfisher has been OBE, but also that two platforms may be acquired.

So more J Herc’s and P-8’s - let’s light this fuse and call it a day.

are you proposing J herc's for SAR then and ditching the 295

 

[GR66]

are you proposing J herc's for SAR then and ditching the 295

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for the 295 to get ditched. That would involve admitting a mistake and wasting money. Something that simply won't happen.

 

[GR66]

Yes 100% but my point is that there is a mindset in Ottawa/Montreal that Boeing was the bad guy. So I am putting my bet down now that as long as Justin Libs are government nothing with be move forward on this file. One they can point to the CP-140 upgrade right now. Two say we are looking at options. Then run the clock out on the P-8 magically say see not available. Then do a COTS buy (Airbus) with someone integrating a sensor suite for a Canadian special in the 2030 timeframe. Success!

Unless Airbus offers a MPA based on the same airframe as the MRTT we're buying (and I haven't seen any indication that they are) then I think the P-8 is still the only real option.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Unfortunately, the P-8 is not the most ideal for SAR and our current fleet is hopelessly inadequate so we need two fleets

SAR is not the main LoT we need the 140 replacement to be capable of. No it doesn't matter if it is the first on the list of Op Cap's. Properly employed, these aircraft aren't sitting around waiting to launch when JRCC gets a call.

Put a SKAD or ASKAD in the bombbay and you'll have the same capability the 140 fleet has. Pretty groovy at search, very limited on "rescue".

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I hate to defend the Cyclone, but it’s not like all of our allies were using the same platform either.

No, but we didn't even use what any of them were already using or developing...so we have a very small fleet that NO ONE else uses, or likely will ever use.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Better hurry up - Boeing is shutting down P8 line “soon”, IOT start cranking out E7 wedgies

I suspect the answer will be public soon...

 

[Weinie]

So, FAA is giving Boeing the gears due to the MAX issue, delaying Boeing’s entirely unrelated SB release needed for TC to rubber stamp the mod for use in Canada, for an engineering mod effectively identical to that which ALE implemented an STC for TC’s approval to use similar mods on -800s in Canada. Sounds like an FAA/TC cockblock, not Boeing not doing the work (which was done and delivered while the FAA slow-rolls Boeing’s SB).

G2G,

I love you man, but sometimes you talk too technical gibberish. Post above went completely above my head. (yesI know that I am short)

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Was that a mistake to put SAR at the top of the list?

No...not to me. Every RCAF aircraft that isn't a primary SAR airframe has SAR as a secondary tasking.

The 140 has sensors, some search stores and a SKAD/Arctic SKAD capability to make it a "SAR platform". SKADs and A/SKADs are carried on the BRUs 15/a's and released pretty much the same way a torp is.

Just make your Cdn P-8 bombbay config capable of dropping a torp and not much needs to be changed/added to drop a SKAD/Arctic SKAD.

Sea SKAD (always just called SKAD = Survival Kit Air Droppable); consists of two 10-person life rafts, each with an attached package of survival equipment, connected by 900 feet of buoyant rope.

Arctic SKAD; consists of life sustaining equipment to survivors on land or ice. It is packaged in a fibreglass shell, and looks almost exactly like a SKAD, except it has white container assembly. The contents (3 seperate packages, 2 of which hold personnel clothing and equip, 1 of which holds equipment such as tents, stoves, sleeping bags, water and food rations) are orange and deploy under a parachute with strobe lights and sirens - the idea is survivors will run to the packages, not the white fiberglass shell. A single A/SKAD can provide 3 layers protection for 20 people plus the tents, stoves, etc.

A few pics attached of a SKAD being loaded, dropped and deployed, all from UNCLASS material.







My main point? There is nothing mystical and magical about the Aurora that makes it effective as a SAR aircraft. It can do it but it isn't the best Fixed Wing SAR platform; I've done real world overland and maritime SAR with it and it has capabilities...and limitations, some of them significant (ability to illuminate the search track at night being a big one...i.e. no decent search lights). Noboby is coming out the door with kit and training to 'save lives' either.

If I'm out in blue water and sinking and a Cdn SAR is coming, I'm hoping it's a P-8 burning up the fuel with a set of SKADs on board...followed by a Herc and Corm team with the real SAR pro crews coming to do what they do best.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Is the P-8 unsuitable for SAR or just a poor choice.

Neither; it just has to be configd to carry our current SKAD (easy to do, we've already done it with the P-3).

Is there a need for another platform to take the strain off the ASW?

Sea Guardian would be nice, but...don't hold your breathe. What we need is more money, in which we could get more aircraft and crews to fly and maintain them. Open the purse strings in Ottawa and I'd go mixed fleet of Sea Guardian or equiv, and crewed MPAs.

If only 1 fleet is the option (reality), crewed MPA.

Does it have to be manned?

Yes

Is it more economical to run another platform.

Not in the RCAF, IMO.

SAR would seem to be a secondary job at best and if the CC-295's problems arent resolved by the time the Aurora's replacement reaches IOC then we have other problems as well

SAR needs to solve SAR. LRP needs to solve LRP. We are different fleets with different FE realities.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

G2G,

I love you man, but sometimes you talk too technical gibberish. Post above went completely above my head. (yesI know that I am short)

 

[Good2Golf]

G2G,

I love you man, but sometimes you talk too technical gibberish. Post above went completely above my head. (yesI know that I am short)

@Weinie, you understood the “cockblock” part though, right?

 

[dapaterson]

Airbus was considering the A320, not A330, as a potential multi mission aircraft.

A320neo M3A Modular Multi-Mission Aircraft

Airbus introduced A320neo M3A (Modular Multi-Mission Aircraft) concept, a military derivative of A320neo commercial jet, in July 2018.

www.naval-technology.com