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Close Air Support in the CF: Bring back something like the CF-5 or introduce something with props?

MCG said:
I think the "what type" has been answered above as a modern multi-role fighter.

I used to be a Super Hornet proponent.  2 engines, multi-role, AESA radar, you know....  Until I was read in to the JSF program.  Then I quickly changed my mind after seeing what the F-35 could really do, well beyond what MSM says...
 
SupersonicMax said:
I used to be a Super Hornet proponent.  2 engines, multi-role, AESA radar, you know....  Until I was read in to the JSF program.  Then I quickly changed my mind after seeing what the F-35 could really do, well beyond what MSM says...

agreed, the problem is people are bashing the F-35 because of what it CURRENTLY can do, not what it will be able to do once everything is said and done
 
SupersonicMax said:
I used to be a Super Hornet proponent.  2 engines, multi-role, AESA radar, you know....  Until I was read in to the JSF program.  Then I quickly changed my mind after seeing what the F-35 could really do, well beyond what MSM says...

Agreeably, the government has not necessarily messaged the capabilities and the requirement well, and this includes the Liberal government right back to 2002, when then ADM(Mat) Mr. Williams, signed the original JSF Memorandum of Understanding with the USA in Washington.

A number of forum members have noted the key to the capability, which is the fact that the F-35 is part of the system of system of 5th Generation warfare systems - many sensor, command and control, targeting and kinetic engagement capabilities integrated into a very capable, but also very expensive, battlespace framework.  F-35 is the modest entry into that 5th Gen framework....F-22, B-2 and other capabilities that most people don't and will never know exist, is the higher-level stuff that Canada will likely never possess.  The physical flying capabilities of the jet itself are but a portion of the overall capability.

I neither try to make the case for, note refute the F-35.  It is, however, a system that will have a good portion of a century of life in service.

:2c:

G2G
 
I have been a follower of most posts here about the F35, and I did like the Super Hornet also as it is very close to what  we fly now.
Canadians and the those we elect to power do not seem to realize we buy a piece of equipment of for the Military for what we need today and hope it still works tomorrow when we need it.

Examples of this
Seaking helicopter, designed in the 1950s introduced into service in 1963, still flying today
CF18  designed in the 1970s flown first time in 1978, into service 1983 still flying today
CH 47 designed 1960, many upgrades and redesigns and entered Canadian service for the second time in 2013
CH 146 designed the 80s, first flew 1992, entered service 1995, service life planned to 2021, maybe 2025
F35, designed and planned in 2000s, first flight 2006, life span unknown
C 130  designed in the 1960s again and various upgrades been in the manufacturing for over 50 years. Canada did buy  upgrades and kept some of the older airframes for search and rescue.
Canadians seem to forget that equipment purchased for one generation is going to be still in service for the next 2 generations of soldiers at least.

We do this with aircraft, tanks, trucks, jeeps, howizters, and even small arms.
Now the F 35 if that is the air frame that is going to replace the CF 18, and was put into service today at midnight. How long will it be flying for till we look at a replacement plan for it?  CF 18 has been flying for 32 years now, F 35 if we got into service today, it would be 2047 if they get 32 years of service from it. We do not know what  the needs will be that far into the future. How many generations of pilots and service crews will be working on this air frame.  20 years is a long career I am guessing, so we will at least 2 generations of pilots flying this air frame. Most likely a 3rd will start the road to flying it and might make the switch to the new aircraft.

If we get the F 35, it will be the all job tasking air craft, fighter, recon, and bomber and close air support air craft. We need an aircraft that will last till when the government decides we need something new and shiny again.
 
FormerHorseGuard said:
Examples of this
Seaking helicopter, designed in the 1950s introduced into service in 1963, still flying today
CF18  designed in the 1970s flown first time in 1978, into service 1983 still flying today
CH 47 designed 1960, many upgrades and redesigns and entered Canadian service for the second time in 2013
CH 146 designed the 80s, first flew 1992, entered service 1995, service life planned to 2021, maybe 2025
F35, designed and planned in 2000s, first flight 2006, life span unknown
C 130  designed in the 1960s again and various upgrades been in the manufacturing for over 50 years.
Daftandbarmy

There, FTFY  ;D
 
Loachman said:
And emergency responses can be practised in simulators that cannot be practised in a real aircraft, as they are either too dangerous or the emergency cannot be simulated in the real aircraft. There are other benefits, too, from relatively simple but networked systems - multi-aircraft tactical missions can be planned to the same degree whether the mission is conducted in the real aircraft or in simulators. There is little transferable flying skill involved, but more missions can be run in a shorter period at much lower cost,  and none are subject to the vagaries of serviceability or weather. The main intent is to confirm planning and orders and inter-crew communications and co-operation.

We have a few options for 'simulation' in the CP140 world like other sim's, which can exercise the entire aircrew at once, partial task trainers, flight-deck specific, stuff that can be done while airborne.  As sim's improve, so do the resulting training.  It allows very flexible CRM trg, SA, mission-specific etc options in any weather and 'YFR' environment. 
 
Eye In The Sky said:
We have a few options for 'simulation' in the CP140 world like other sim's, which can exercise the entire aircrew at once, partial task trainers, flight-deck specific, stuff that can be done while airborne.  As sim's improve, so do the resulting training.  It allows very flexible CRM trg, SA, mission-specific etc options in any weather and 'YFR' environment.

Battle Management aircraft (MPAs, AWACS, JSTARS, advanced MH) have significantly different simulator requirements then other aircraft; the mission Sims can stand somewhat alone from the flight Sims, although the more tactical missions (eg ASW) tend to require a good representation of what the flight deck does.  Less experienced pilots from other communities don't seem to understand these aircraft are quite focused on the back end  ( the last Comd RCAF didn't understand it at all, except maybe in the context of AWACS).

I think this is where the F-35 is a game changer.  The networking, sensors, and displays allows all the aircraft to become a battle management team, much like Link has between ships.  That means it should be much more effective at putting the right thing at the right place and time, especially when other Battle management assets aren't present.  Thought: will it replace the need for AWACS by putting the battle managers in the cockpit?

Right now, it's the only real game in town for that as far as I'm concerned; the advantages of building it from the ground up are very real.  The RCAF has done a horrible job of explaining it though; statements like we really need it because of what it can do, but I'm not going to tell you what that is because it's classified are not acceptable, not.only are they condescending but it's their money.

My opinion is that it's going to force a basic question in airpower with the emergence of bandwidth as one of the most important resources in battle (allowing sensor information to be passed in fused): centralized or decentralized.  In the simplest explanation, centralized is the AWACS model of everything to a central control hub, decentralized is the F-35 model at its logical full implementation of every node a control hub.  Tactically, UAVS are just sensor (and possibly weapon) extensions of this network; the control hubs are still required (we're a long way from allowing machines to decide when we kill someone, and I think morally we need to stay there).  Notice these are control hubs that are decentralized; centralized command is still required.

Training wise, the end case models represent two different requirements: the decentralized version requires less people (no dedicated control hubs) but more training for each, centralized requires more people,  but each has less tasks so less training.

The overall answer to these questions will determine if the next fighter (or closer to my roots next MH) will be manned...
 
But how long will the F-35 hold this technological edge? Sensors, computers, RAM, memory are all getting cheaper, smaller, less power hungry and more reliable. You can be sure the Chinese are working hard to get (by any means) and replicate this edge. So once the F35 meets a similar equipped opponent, what else does it bring to the fight? (I neither a hater or a fanboy of the F35 for the record)
 
Re: all the fancy simulators. I agree with Chris they ought to be appearing, in quantity, on every base, station, garrison, school, reserve naval division and militia armoury ... and each must be accompanies by the right supply, support and maintenance contracts and/or the detachments of CF technicians needed to keep them running.
 
SupersonicMax said:
It will still be better off than a 4th Gen .

I actually agree, as I said so much effort has been put into it that it's the only game in town... but somebody needs to explain it to the people that have to pay for it why that's important...
 
E.R. Campbell said:
Re: all the fancy simulators. I agree with Chris they ought to be appearing, in quantity, on every base, station, garrison, school, reserve naval division and militia armoury ... and each must be accompanies by the right supply, support and maintenance contracts and/or the detachments of CF technicians needed to keep them running.

The neat thing is that the first two "simulators" I posted are actually the real-time workstations for the NASAMS GBAD system and the Reaper UAV.

The fact that the "missiles" and "UAVs" are not at the other end of the "phone" is apparently immaterial.  Nor is the length of the "wire".
 
Not much sense if putting a UAV GCS 'simulator' in place if you don't actually have any AUVs though is there.  Echo that statement for any of the above pictures sim's that we don't have now and aren't expecting to have in the next 2+ years.  Put the money into improving the ones we have now and getting ones for the systems coming online in the very near future... :2c:.

FWIW, I have heard zero chatter about needing payload op's in units in Canada; and even less about Canada having its own UAV in the next 2-4 years.
 
Eye In The Sky said:
Not much sense if putting a UAV GCS 'simulator' in place if you don't actually have any AUVs though is there.  Echo that statement for any of the above pictures sim's that we don't have now and aren't expecting to have in the next 2+ years.  Put the money into improving the ones we have now and getting ones for the systems coming online in the very near future... :2c:.

FWIW, I have heard zero chatter about needing payload op's in units in Canada; and even less about Canada having its own UAV in the next 2-4 years.

EITS......

All it wants is a plan, a concept, a vision... a flaming target.  >:D
 
With respect to the funding/vision thing:

The generalized use of simulators down to every garrison and armoury impacts on the size of the training bill, the size of the training staff, command and control in the CAF, comms, netting, and the way the CAF fights.

In a world of google glasses and every weapon with a scope/screen attached, and 20,000 people playing Halo while another 50,000 play COD and god knows how many others playing WOT etc.  the technology is already there.  Security issues need to be addressed - but that was/is true for radios, heliographs and semaphore.  Ruggedness issues need to be addressed but I have faith that you will figure out ways to break anything that is fielded in any event.

In the mean time even if the early effort is focused on "training only" solutions at the armoury floor the Command, Control, Communications and Networking dollars spent will likely be indistinguishable from the CCC and Networking dollars spent from the operational budget.  The Upper Management HMIs will all look and work the same.  The Data management will be the same in both cases. The only question will be the nature of the sensors and the operators - are they spoofed, are they directly connected, are they man-in-the-loop or are they autonomous operators reporting in by voice?

I could easily see the day where Command pods like the GBAD one, or even the Reaper one, shown were cropping up everywhere.  If one Command HMI pod were in common use then training, ops, maintenance and the budget would all benefit. 

If you can get three or four pods to every armoury then adding in a few for a new overseas deployment would be a dawdle.

And if you used a common architecture for a naval CIC as for the land forces, and you accepted that command is command then you would impact on the deployable footprint of HQs.

If each 2-person Command Pod is optimized to report one up, and controlling 2 to 5 subordinates then your Command training becomes standardized and simplified - and secured due to the redundancies associated with nodal networking.

Once the upper management level is fixed (both cured and standardized) then the lower levels become easier.  And plugging in operators (flyers, tankers, recce troopers, sailors, gunners, mortars, mgs, snipers and assaulters) all become easy.  Most of the systems necessary exist.

The impact, I believe (opinion I stress), the impact would be across the board. Mechanical systems that wear out during training would be conserved.  Training would become closer to real world training.  Actual vehicles and weapons would be concentrated at training nodes and points of departure to be issued as required. (And complaints about weapons not properly cleaned on return should be dealt with by the summary firing of Sergeants Major until cleaning improves - maintenance will just have to suck up the rest - but their numbers should be concentrated in fewer locations managing fewer systems and with clear distinctions between deployable vehicles and weapons and training vehicles and weapons).

And people would start asking: "why do I need so many pods to relay instructions between me in Ottawa and Bloggins in Kinshasa when I can see what he sees and hear his call for fire support and I know I have 4x F35s, and a dozen missiles in VLS cells off shore that I can vector to his assistance?"

Give the job to Sony and have them build it around the Xbox system.  Two operators in a seacan with an Xbox, two wide screen tvs, a pair of La-Z-Boys and a coffee maker.

They can then start plugging in F-35s, M777s, Leopards, Mortars and C6/7/8/9s.

And as a side benefit - If the module is standardized across ABCA then Canadians could stand a shift while Aussie and Brit Reaper operators get their heads down.

That's what I meant by a plan, a concept, a vision - a flaming target.  Something to aim for.  :)

Edit: By the way, modelling on the basis of 1 and 4 yields this:

CDS - 1
Chiefs - 4
Groups - 16
Units      - 64
Sub-Units - 256
Sub-Sub-Units - 1024
Sections          - 4096
Dets/Tms          - 16384
Troops                - 65536

Adjust according to practical and budgetary demands.

 
I for one (and maybe it is just me), don't support investing a whole lot of money on the PRES for simulators; sorry it is just that money can be better used on people and units who are part of the Reg Force.  I don't see the cost benefit of these systems for armouries where they might get used a handful of times each year.  In those cases, centralize the system like they do in Knox or something and have people go there to use them.

There was talk years and years ago about putting Coyote turret sim's at PRES Armd Recce units; it never happened and likely for the same reasons/concerns I mentioned above.  I train in sim's now and they are not cheap or simple.
 
there are different levels for sims, one like Steel beast Pro can work with the full meal deal cockpit or a regular destop PC. It is about what you wish to train for. at my armoury we had a room turned into a "puff table" for training OP's. We also had the 14.5mm arty sim as well, mind you only got used once in my time. much of the training was "dry heaves" which really is a reality based extension of the Sim. the SB Pro sim allows for tactical training for the officers to get them used to handling multiple and varied units, plus resources.
 
Signs of change in procurement?  Asking for answers to the question: "What can you do with what is available?"

Goldfein said it is important to note, “This isn’t a competition, it’s an experiment.”

We’re going to do this experiment and see what’s out there, and I’m expecting many of the companies to come forward,” he said.

Brig. Gen. Edward Thomas, director of Air Force public affairs, said Goldfein — who hasn’t officially signed off on the experiment, dubbed OA-X — “believes it does make sense to look at opportunities to provide a … cheaper, attack-type aircraft that can do the close-air support mission, that other countries, allies, can fly also. And do this in a way that doesn’t require an F-22 or an F-35 over a permissive environment,” he said, mentioning Iraq and Afghanistan.

With the current budget, “I don’t believe there is anything specifically programmed for it right now,” Thomas said, noting the experiment is in its early stages and doesn’t have any funding attached.

The additional light attack aircraft — which would not replace the service’s beloved A-10 Warthog — “would relieve the pressure on other aircraft, maintenance crews, [and] it would give us some turning space with our other combat platforms,” Thomas said.

In September, Holmes told Defense News that a less expensive aircraft could help the service alleviate the strain of maintaining its infrastructure, growing and training new pilot ranks, and adding more resources while simultaneously contributing to ongoing conflicts.

“We don’t think it would cost a lot of money, and it’s designed just to help us get our arms around [questions like], ‘What can you actually do? Does it actually contribute? Can it survive in different threat environments?’ ” Holmes said at the time. 

http://www.defensetech.org/2017/01/19/air-force-eyes-low-cost-fighter-experiment/

textron-scorpion-777.jpg
 
More at AvWeek:

U.S. Air Force Chief Backs Idea Of Low-Cost Fighter Fleet

The U.S. Air Force chief of staff endorses the idea of buying 300 low-cost, light-attack fighters for counterterrorism missions as a “great idea.”

Gen. David Goldfein is already preparing to talk with industry about engaging companies such as Textron, which makes the Scorpion light attack fighter. The dates are still to be determined, but after a talk at the American Enterprise Institute Jan. 18, Goldfein said he may begin to “experiment” with commercial off-the-shelf designs for light fighters as soon as this spring.

In a white paper out this week [ http://www.mccain.senate.gov/public/_cache/files/25bff0ec-481e-466a-843f-68ba5619e6d8/restoring-american-power-7.pdf ], Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, suggested that in addition to using the A-10 for close air support, the Air Force should buy 300 light-attack fighters. They could help perform close air support and other missions where air defenses are not a problem and help bring pilots up to speed. “The Air Force could procure the first 200 of these aircraft by fiscal year 2022,” the paper says.

It is not the first time that top Air Force officials have mentioned the idea. In July, officials discussed the possibility of an “OA-X” program to supplement the service’s light attack force. Sierra Nevada’s A-29 Super Tucano and the Beechcraft AT-6 Wolverine were mentioned as possible platforms...
http://aviationweek.com/defense/us-air-force-chief-backs-idea-low-cost-fighter-fleet

Mark
Ottawa
 
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