Close Air Support in the CF: Bring back something like the CF-5 or introduce something with props?

[Armymatters]

Canada might have to look to europe in the future as US aircraft such as the JSF and Raptor seem to be out of a realistic price range, problem with the Gripen is that it is a single engine aircraft..

The nice thing about the Gripen is that its engine is a modification of the GE F404 engine, of which we use in our CF-18's.

 

[geo]

If I'm not mistaken that does'nt count the aircraft in storage that might add another 200 - 300 A/C to that number.

The AF "fact sheet" didn't mention anything about a/c is storage...... with the additional hours being added to each airframe, I do not believe there are as many "on the shelf" as there are in the air... but I guess there must be some - somewhere.

 

[Good2Golf]

So what is with the naked guy in photo 4?

George, I think it's a peach-coloured flight suit...  ;D  What were we talking about, again?

 

[geo]

Peach colour?....
Must be a SAR guy with washed out suit OR..... maintain the story.... he's naked!

 

[Matt_Fisher]

Blackwater Security is in the process of purchasing the Brazilian Super Tucano for counter-insurgency operations and the USAF have announced a tender for COIN aircraft for the fledgling Iraqi Air Force, whereby one of the prerequisites is that the powerplant be a Pratt & Whitney Canada PT-6A.

Something like the Embraer EMB-314 Super Tucano/ ALX , Hawker-Beechcraft/Raytheon AT-6, or the US Aircraft Corporation's A-67 could be quite well suited as a relatively inexpensive close-air support asset that the CFs (and most NATO nations) are currently lacking.

US Aircraft A-67
http://www.usaircraftcorp.com/

Hawker-Beechcraft AT-6
http://www.hawkerbeechcraft.com/military/at-6_ab/R0816AT-6_LithoUpdate.pdf

Embraer EMB-314 Super Tucano
http://www.embraerdefensesystems.com/english/content/combat/tucano_light_attack.asp

A twin engined (non-P&W powered) aircraft that's also interesting to have a look at is the Argentine FMA IA 58 Pucará, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FMA_IA_58_Pucar%C3%A1.  Would there be any advantages to modifying this aircraft with P&W PT-6As, aside from a nice 'Made In Canada' bit that could boost appeal to procurement folks?

 

[Matt_Fisher]

Here's something I'm going to throw out there, just for fun:

Canadianized 'CA-58 Super Pucara'.  Original 760kW Astazous engines are replaced with PT6A-67s, and an air-to-air refueling prode to make the aircraft more self-deployable.

 

[tomahawk6]

Blackwater is buying the Super Tucano.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/articles/20070827.aspx

Blackwater Buys Brazilian Bombers

August 27, 2007: Security company Blackwater U.S.A. is buying Super Tucano light combat aircraft from the Brazilian manufacturer Embraer. These five ton, single engine, single seat aircraft are built for pilot training, but also perform quite well for counter-insurgency work. Brazil. The Super Tucano is basically a prop driven trainer that is equipped for combat missions. The aircraft can carry up to 1.5 tons of weapons, including 12.7mm machine-guns, bombs and missiles. The aircraft cruises at about 500 kilometers an hour and can stay in the air for about 6.5 hours per sortie. One of the options is a FLIR (infrared radar that produces a photo realistic video image in any weather) and a fire control system for bombing. Colombia is using the Super Tucanos for counter-insurgency work (there are over 20,000 armed rebels and drug gang gunmen in the country). The aircraft is also used for border patrol. The U.S. Air Force is watching that quite closely. The Super Tucano costs $9 million each, and come in one or two seat versions. The bubble canopy provides excellent visibility. This, coupled with its slow speed (versus jets), makes it an excellent ground attack aircraft.

Blackwater already has a force of armed helicopters in Iraq, and apparently wants something a little faster, and more heavily armed, to fulfill its security contracts overseas. Initially, Blackwater is getting one two-seater, for pilot training in the United States.

 

[Zoomie]

The Hawker-Beechcraft AT-6 is a "weaponized" version of the CT-156 Harvard 2.  Commonality of training would permit such an aircraft to be easily streamed into CF service - as all newer CF pilots are qualified on type.

 

[McG]

If we are looking for something to fill a lighter ground support role, as a compliment to the CF-18 fleet, then I think we should be looking at UAVs like the Reaper.
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/34289/post-614453.html#msg614453

They bring a lighter punch but can be much more persistent over the battlefield. 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Considering that our current enemies have minimal AD and if we deploy to some of the African cesspools where unguided 23mm are the main threat, smaller CAS aircraft may be very useful. I think the key is their deployment, don't use them for hunter killer mission where they can be drawn into a AD ambush, but only as direct support for the troops and convoys. Using a platform like the Hawk or Harvard 2 make sense from a logistic point of view, although they would have limited armament, fuel and protection. It would certainly be worth building up a Air reserve squadron here in Canada that uses these aircraft, to build knowledge base for both the Air Force and forward observers in CAS, this ability could be transferred to more robust aircraft and would also be a good way to retain some the pilots in the forces,

I suspect flying around shooting and bombing stuff would be a fun way for a Air Canada pilot to spend their weekends...

 

[GK .Dundas]

Considering that our current enemies have minimal AD and if we deploy to some of the African cesspools where unguided 23mm are the main threat, smaller CAS aircraft may be very useful. I think the key is their deployment, don't use them for hunter killer mission where they can be drawn into a AD ambush, but only as direct support for the troops and convoys. Using a platform like the Hawk or Harvard 2 make sense from a logistic point of view, although they would have limited armament, fuel and protection. It would certainly be worth building up a Air reserve squadron here in Canada that uses these aircraft, to build knowledge base for both the Air Force and forward observers in CAS, this ability could be transferred to more robust aircraft and would also be a good way to retain some the pilots in the forces,

I suspect flying around shooting and bombing stuff would be a fun way for a Air Canada pilot to spend their weekends...

One Hawk 100 with integral 30 mm Aden gun 4 x 250 LB. SDB 2 x19 70 mm laser guided rockets sounds good to me!
I'm about to use a phrase that will get most the F18 crowd recoiling in disgust . "close air support"

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I see Singapore is signing a deal to replace it's F5's with Gripens.

 

[forcerecon85]

For filling a CAS and provide air security, I know the conversation was more than a year back, would we be able to lease some Panavia Tornado IDS? From what I remember as an interested civy it had good survivability, a full array of close air support tools and can provide protective air defense with aim-9's and aim-132's. As a bonus, Germany is downsizing its force, so we might be able to get a deal. My only question is if the Tornado is too old? Would it fill a gap until the JSF is done? Also, as a dreamer, I'd love to see A-10's or F-15E's. If it was still alive I'd throw the F-14D Tomcat's hat in the ring.

 

[Spencer100]

I see Singapore is signing a deal to replace it's F5's with Gripens.

They did not go Gripen.  They went 12 F-15SG Strike Eagles with all the options! 

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/singapores-rsaf-decides-to-fly-like-an-eagle-01141/#more

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Not sure but I think these are two different deals

Sounds like the F-15's were meant to replace the Skyhawks and Gripen may replace the F-5's

 

[aesop081]

Panavia Tornado IDS?

Aircraft being retired by everyone using it except the Saudi Arabia.

As a bonus, Germany is downsizing its force, so we might be able to get a deal.

Yes, thats just what we need...more second hand stuff other coutries are retiring because its old and outdated. They are downsizing their Tornado force for a reason you know........its called Typhoon.

A-10's

No longer manufactured by anyone...anywhere.

or F-15E's.

As soon as South Korea's order has been delivered, the production line is closing.

If it was still alive I'd throw the F-14D Tomcat's hat in the ring.

Well, its dead and so are any spare parts for it....case closed

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The A10's worst enemy has always been the USAF. Their handling of this aircraft careers is the best argument I have seen for a rebirth of the USAAF. I suspect that if you could start building the updated A10 version today, you would have a buyer tomorrow waiting at the end of the line.

 

[SupersonicMax]

One Hawk 100 with integral 30 mm Aden gun 4 x 250 LB. SDB 2 x19 70 mm laser guided rockets sounds good to me!
I'm about to use a phrase that will get most the F18 crowd recoiling in disgust . "close air support"

Please support this argument please.  All I've heart from the Hornet community about CAS is just positive.  They've been training for some time already for that specific mission.

 

[forcerecon85]

Aircraft being retired by everyone using it except the Saudi Arabia.

Yes, thats just what we need...more second hand stuff other coutries are retiring because its old and outdated. They are downsizing their Tornado force for a reason you know........its called Typhoon.


No longer manufactured by anyone...anywhere.

As soon as South Korea's order has been delivered, the production line is closing.

Well, its dead and so are any spare parts for it....case closed

Thanks for the update, I've been out of the loop too long.

 

[h3tacco]

Notwithstanding its current grounding its my understanding that the F-15E compares favorably to the F-16, F/A-18 and Tornado in respect to CAS. It carries a larger payload and has a greater endurance (ie longer on-station time) than all three. As well it has an extra crewman over the F-16 and F/A-18, which apparently is quite useful for CAS type missions.