Civilians complaining about Police/Emergency Services' Pay

[mariomike]

Many won't look beyond the numbers as to the root causes.

Supply versus demand for service and response times. How long should a caller be willing to wait? I have heard it said that it may be cheaper to pay the OT than hire new recruits.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I have no doubt you are correct there SL, but the question then should not be "Why is so and so earning so much", for which the answer is easy, because he worked one and a half time the hours of the other police officers during the year, but rather (and its a question for management/politicians) "why do 20% of the police officers work 140% of regular hours every year? Hire some more officers so we can cut on overtime !!!"

Because its cheaper to pay a trained officer time and a half then to pay more officers training, benefits and regular time.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I can agree with that fact at first, but not in the long run. And if the fact that hiring and training an influx of new recruits costs more today even if it leads you to a better situation in the end, stops you from acting, don't ever claim that you know how to manage. Every private company knows that you have to invest first, before any profits start to roll in. If you are unwilling to make the investment now and spend money, don't expect any return.

In the long run, after a "burst" increase in training increasing your number of officers, you will reach a steady state that will see much less overtime required and savings as a result (and a lot less medical leave for over-stress, or burnout, or injuries caused by mistakes resulting from fatigue and general tiredness).

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

The manager who overspends today will not be around to be the manager when those benefits start to surface, so they place short term bandaids on things..............see past GM's of the Toronto Maple Leafs as a shining example. ;D

Having said that, not every private company knows everything.......see Target Canada.
Wise spending and spending are two very different things.

 

[mariomike]

I know plenty of civilian officers who earn huge amounts each year but they have to forgo vacation time and work plenty of overtime to make that amount.

That may also explain why there were so few from the job in the militia ( at least when I was in ). It became increasingly difficult to ( financially ) justify to myself refusal of 12-hour voluntary OT shifts ( although some OT was mandated ) to attend parade nights and weekend exercises.

Although it never happened during my career, after I retired, there were occasional ( unofficial ) mass refusals to work voluntary OT.

( Mayor ) Ford urges paramedics to work overtime
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/10/09/ford-urges-paramedics-to-work-overtime



 

 

[Alberta Bound]

The major problem with the "sunshine list" in Ontario is it doesn't breakdown the money. So you can't tell who from the Ministry of Health got a bonus of $, or in the Legislature who got $ for only 8 months work, or which OPP member worked a bunch of OT in an isolated spot waiting for a position to be filled and which City Cop worked a ton of paid duties. 

 

[mariomike]

The major problem with the "sunshine list" in Ontario is it doesn't breakdown the money. So you can't tell who from the Ministry of Health got a bonus of $, or in the Legislature who got $ for only 8 months work, or which OPP member worked a bunch of OT in an isolated spot waiting for a position to be filled and which City Cop worked a ton of paid duties.

I don't believe OPP members are shown on the Sunshine List. It does however identify municipal police officers ( and others ) by name and amount paid.

2015 will be the first time Paid Duty will be included with salary.

 

[Alberta Bound]

OPP is under the Community Safety and Corrections Ministry. Their Commissioner Chris Lewis made $215,000 in 2013.

 

[mariomike]

OPP is under the Community Safety and Corrections Ministry. Their Commissioner Chris Lewis made $215,000 in 2013.

Thanks.

 

[Alberta Bound]

Some OT in policing can't be stopped with extra resources. There will always be continuing duty for investigations, court time, stat holidays, callouts in small non 24 hr locations. Usually the more specialized a member or smaller the Detachment - Unit the more likely there is OT.

But OT to fill regular shifts is a chronic issue because most Govts realise that running a shift short 1 body 24/7 saves $ 600,000. Even when we bring in members on OT ( and we don't for every missing body all the time) is going to be cheaper in the long run. Even if we filled every operational hour with an OT member it would never be worse than breaking even on the cost of a member.

There is always going to have to be a balance. Unfortunately right now in many Detachments that is not happening. Crime stats may say there is less crime (most of that is changes in how crime is reported and counted vs a reduction in actual calls for service) but policing is busier than ever.

Also civilianization has killed us. Instead of paying a police officer to work in Non front line duties in certain circumstances we have civilianized those jobs so we could leverage the lower pay and benefits of support staff. Sounds good, right.  Save $10,000 here, $20,000 there. But when that police officer is unable to do front line work in the short, medium and long periods what do we do with them now that all those jobs are filled by clerks. I don't know many long term operational members (uniformed front line types) who aren't broken at some point in their careers. Now there is no place (funded) to put them for the 6, 12, however many months till they can return to full duty or transition out. Instead they occupy funding for the front line taking away spots on Detachments and Units instead of being productive in some role.

Food for thought.

 

[Alberta Bound]

MM, I know how you feel. It is hard to some times to compare an offer of an OT shift VS reserve pay.
I volunteered to go with a bunch of cadets for an 8 day visit to Wainwright awhile back. During it a Reg Force Mbr made a comment about CIC and our lack of worthiness and he couldn't believe that I was a Capt and getting paid $200 a day to be there.
Neither could I after his comment, as I had taken leave from the day job and turned down some OT shifts totalling about $3000 to be there.

I could have worked the OT and taken the boss on a nice holiday instead.

It tests your dedication. Oh well.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I thought that you chaps were not allowed to dip your toes in the pond, even as CIC, AB.  When did that change?

 

[Alberta Bound]

Some time ago they let us into CIC and then eventually PRes. I went back into the CIC in 2006 while in northern MB after leaving in 1987. Too old to start fresh in the PRes. Only restrictions are MPs and Rangers as far as I have heard. I enjoy helping the kids and in the small towns there are limited options.

 

[noneck]

Rules changed in Feb of 2007, myself and JH lobbied for 7 years to have the rules changed. Gen Hillier saw the sense in it and made the change.

 

[The_Falcon]

If you are willing to dig through police service board minutes, I believe it was at meeting last Feb-Apr (can't remember when) that board asked the Chief to provide them details on how many more officers would be included on the sunshine list if paid duties were factored in. The result was 75% of TPS would be on the list.

The issue people/politicians are having with paid duties is 1)The police service either is the sole approver of certain kinds of event permits, or they are at least partially involved in the decision process, which creates a conflict of interest, when they also say if you want your permit approved you WILL use X amount of officers.

2) A good chunk of paid duties involve municipal works projects, and the issue is the source of the money. While the construction company are paying for the paid duties (and often it is something they are told they must do), the company is being paid by the city (ie tax dollars) to do the work.

 

[mariomike]

Regarding Paid Duty:

I worked a lot of Paid Duty during my career. It never showed up on the Sunshine List, because the money did not come out of the City Treasury. At least not directly. Community/street events and festivals, CNE and the Air Show, Indy, Caribana, Pride, Canada Day celebrations, Taste the Danforth, Santa Claus Parade, lots of sporting events and marathons, World Youth Day, SARS concert ( 500,000 people showed up ), rock concerts, film shoots, meetings and conventions etc. There were lots of things where they wanted a dedicated crew on standby. All heck could be breaking loose on the 9-1-1 system, but they never called you for any of it if you were on P.D.

The people doing the hiring could go cheap and hire a private company, but we were the sole ambulance service provider within the City of Toronto that was licensed to transport patients in an emergency situation to a hospital (under the Ambulance Act of Ontario).

 

[The_Falcon]

Regarding Paid Duty:

I worked a lot of Paid Duty during my career. It never showed up on the Sunshine List, because the money did not come out of the City Treasury. At least not directly. Community/street events and festivals, CNE and the Air Show, Indy, Caribana, Pride, Canada Day celebrations, Taste the Danforth, Santa Claus Parade, lots of sporting events and marathons, World Youth Day, SARS concert ( 500,000 people showed up ), rock concerts, film shoots, meetings and conventions etc. There were lots of things where they wanted a dedicated crew on standby. All heck could be breaking loose on the 9-1-1 system, but they never called you for any of it if you were on P.D.

The people doing the hiring could go cheap and hire a private company, but we were the sole ambulance service provider within the City of Toronto that was licensed to transport patients in an emergency situation to a hospital (under the Ambulance Act of Ontario).

Regarding who is actually paying for TPS paid duty, the city requested that TPS start tracking and requiring all requests for paid duty to indicate whether or not the request was working on a city paid  project. TPS also changed how they handle paid duties, they now issue (separate) T4's for it since the service collects and distributes the funds to the officers, instead of them getting paid on the spot by whoever requested them.

The fun you can have reading board meeting minutes. 

 

[mariomike]

The fun you can have reading board meeting minutes.

Did you read about this one?  ;D

Only one paid-duty cop needed at Grade 8 graduation after all, police tell school

Under fire for the number of off-duty cops it says are needed at community events, Toronto police backpedal on demand for two armed officers at ceremony for 55 kids.
http://www.thestar.com/news/city_hall/2014/05/22/only_one_paidduty_cop_needed_at_grade_8_graduation_after_all_police_tell_school.html

 

[The_Falcon]

I say meh,  if someone is voluntarily asking for paid-duty, that's on them, whatever the cost. I take umbrage when people are TOLD they MUST have paid-duty officers, whether it's for an event or construction or whatever

 

[Tibbson]

I say meh,  if someone is voluntarily asking for paid-duty, that's on them, whatever the cost. I take umbrage when people are TOLD they MUST have paid-duty officers, whether it's for an event or construction or whatever

I look at it as more of an officer safety issue actually and not TPS telling them they must have paid duty officers at all.  Obviously the school requested a paid duty presence and if TPS requires their officers to work in pairs then so be it.  Would someone be able to tell mariomike that he was needed for a paid duty but they only needed the ambulance driver because the event organizer had their own first aid staff to handle the hands on care? 

Yes it was "only" 55 8th graders but it was also potentially 110 parents, school staff, other assorted family members and visitors.  Others are more familiar with Toronto then I am so they know the school neighborhood better then I do but if someone from the community wanted to cause a problem (or engage in an active shooter incident) I'd say that two paid duty officers would be more effective then just one.  Not to say they could handle things single handedly but with two you have a better chance to triage the situation and call for backup. 

One officer to direct traffic, perhaps.  Other then that I'd think it prudent to have partners.