• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Civilians complaining about Police/Emergency Services' Pay

TFS is taking some heat over chute times.

"Toronto Fire Fighters are too slow getting to work. It's going to take $33 million of your property tax dollars to let them off the hook.":
http://allsecondscount.ca/Why_All_Seconds_Count.html

http://facts-or-fear.com/Home_Page.html
"Of all the emergency calls that Toronto Fire responds to, only 1% are actually fires."






 
mariomike said:
TFS is taking some heat over chute times.

"Toronto Fire Fighters are too slow getting to work. It's going to take $33 million of your property tax dollars to let them off the hook.":
http://allsecondscount.ca/Why_All_Seconds_Count.html

http://facts-or-fear.com/Home_Page.html
"Of all the emergency calls that Toronto Fire responds to, only 1% are actually fires."

Those stats just kill me, especially when you see how many calls are medical, and then you here about all the issues TEMS is facing, responding to medical calls.
 
Hatchet Man said:
Those stats just kill me, especially when you see how many calls are medical, and then you here about all the issues TEMS is facing, responding to medical calls.

There have been studies, such as this one, regarding Firefighter First Response ( FFR ) to emergency medical calls in Toronto:
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/10903120903349754
"The model predicts that FFR lights-and-siren responses in the sample could be reduced by 83%..."

TPS tweeted this last Friday ( no info on the Incident Type ):
http://twitter.com/Sgt6920/status/287272053025943552/photo/1/large



 
A professor from the Royal Military College of Canada on the subject of, "Toronto and the Cost of Emergency Services":
http://theagenda.tvo.org/blog/agenda-blogs/toronto-and-cost-emergency-services

 
From yesterday's National Post.

"The thin red line: Increasingly idle fire stations a tempting target for cash-strapped cities":
http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/02/09/the-thin-red-line-increasingly-idle-fire-stations-a-tempting-target-for-cash-strapped-cities/

 
Reader's comments and poll ( about a 50-50 split ) in today's Sun.

"Toronto firefighters land 'high' pay hike in arbitrated contract
http://www.torontosun.com/2013/06/27/toronto-firefighters-land-high-pay-hike-in-arbitrated-contract


 
mariomike said:
From what I read in the papers, I think our emergency services provide good value.

For example, ten years ago T-EMS put 67 ambulances in service every morning.

Now it has fallen to 60.

Even though there has been a 24.9 per cent increase in call volume during that time.

TFS currently has 128 emergency response vehicles. In 1998, they had 133.

Their call volume has increased by 29 per cent.
My guess would be that the majority of calls now would be of a more serious nature now.
Since 1998 the patient transfer industry has greatly risen freeing up the emergency ambulance services  respond to the serious calls as opposed to some of the routine transfers where a stretcher is the main requirement.
 
X Royal said:
My guess would be that the majority of calls now would be of a more serious nature now.
Since 1998 the patient transfer industry has greatly risen freeing up the emergency ambulance services  respond to the serious calls as opposed to some of the routine transfers where a stretcher is the main requirement.

That is true. ( For sure in Ontario because of provincial legislation. Not sure what the patient transfer legislation is, if any, in the other provinces. )

In spite of that, in Toronto at least, emergency response time actually got worse.

In 1996, T-EMS responded to emergency calls in 8.59 minutes or less 84 per cent of the time. By 2012, they were making that standard less than 62 per cent of the time.
 
mariomike said:
in Toronto at least, emergency response time actually got worse.

In 1996, T-EMS responded to emergency calls in 8.59 minutes or less 84 per cent of the time. By 2012, they were making that standard less than 62 per cent of the time.
I'm sure lengthy off load times at hospitals play a big part in the slower responses.
 
mariomike said:
In spite of that, in Toronto at least, emergency response time actually got worse.

In 1996, T-EMS responded to emergency calls in 8.59 minutes or less 84 per cent of the time. By 2012, they were making that standard less than 62 per cent of the time.

X Royal said:
I'm sure lengthy off load times at hospitals play a big part in the slower responses.

A 2011 budget briefing note helps explain the reason for response times deterioration. (Hi-lights are mine).

 
Retired AF Guy said:
A 2011 budget briefing note helps explain the reason for response times deterioration. (Hi-lights are mine).

X Royal said:
I'm sure lengthy off load times at hospitals play a big part in the slower responses.

Regarding Off-Load Delay ( OLD ). From the 2013 T-EMS Operating Budget to The City of Toronto page 14.
http://www.toronto.ca/budget2013/pdf/op13_an_ems.pdf

"Improved Hospital Offload Delay: EMS continued to realize measurable decreases in the impacts of Hospital Offload Delay through the Dedicated Offload Nurse Program, ongoing negotiations with Toronto hospitals and site-specific reporting to improve their offload times. The average offload time in 2011 was 48.5 minutes (against the standard of 30 minutes) and is projected to remain stable by the end of 2012. These efforts have contributed to improved/shortened wait times from an average of 70 minutes in 2008 to an estimated average of 48 minutes in 2012. Negotiated with the province to expand and continue the Dedicated Offload Nurse Program in 2013."

The POMAX Report was released to The City of Toronto this week.
http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/13135525/1343983969/name/Pomax%20backgroundfile-59902.pdf

Fortunately, it recommended not to amalgamate TFS and T-EMS.

It also recommended against a "Fire-Medic" model. These are common in American cities.

It did however recommend the City increase T-EMS response capacity by 223,451 staffed vehicle hours to meet demand.

"There has been a 28% increase in emergency call demand for paramedics over the last ten years. This call volume trend continues to increase at a rate greater than the city’s population growth and will likely continue to increase by 2 to 4 % annually." 

Hiring will help reduce Paramedic overtime.

In today's Globe and Mail:

"Left-winger David Miller couldn’t do it. Right-winger Rob Ford can’t either. Municipal governments of every stripe are struggling to control the relentless rise in the cost of policing and fire fighting. They are failing. The recent labour agreement between the City of Toronto and its firefighters helps explain why."
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/contract-ruling-adds-fuel-to-the-fire/article12898294/

"Wages are only part of the problem. The city is paying out millions in death benefits for firefighters who die of cancers that are presumed to have been caused by their work. Provincial legislation that took effect in 2007 says that eight types of cancer – including brain, bladder, kidney, colon/rectum and esophagus – are presumed to be work-related for firefighters. Benefits are handed out without any need to prove they were caused by toxins encountered in the line of duty."

"The city notes in its most recent budget that the presumptive-claims legislation, which extended retroactively to 1960, imposed $100-million in costs on municipalities."

Regarding future municipal budget planning, the proposed presumptive PTSD legislation for Ontario Police Officers, Firefighters and Paramedics also says, "Time limits do not apply".


 
More fuel for the fire  ;D

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/a-nation-of-100000-firefighters/article13647608/

Everyone loves firefighters. They save lives. They are strong and competent. They look good on calendars. People are always happy when they show up.

But municipalities do not love firefighters. Across Canada, towns and cities are getting hosed by the skyrocketing costs of their fire departments. Thanks to arbitration settlements, your firefighters are the best paid (and possibly the most underworked) guys in town. Firefighters have been getting raises that are twice as high what other public sector workers have been getting, at a time when municipalities are strapped for funds and raises are just a memory for most of us.

Here in Toronto, firefighters recently won a 14-per-cent wage increase over five years, which means that by next year, a first-class firefighter will be making $90,000. But it’s the small towns that are hit worst. Tiny Owen Sound, Ont. (population 32,092), has 29 full-time fire professionals. Last year, 25 of them made more than $100,000. The median full-time income of people who live in Owen Sound is less than half that.

For smaller cities, the fire department is typically the largest item in the budget. It accounts for upward of a quarter of their costs. But municipalities are powerless to control firefighters’ salaries, because negotiations with the union almost always wind up in arbitration. And arbitrators aren’t obliged to give much weight to a town’s ability to pay. Instead, they simply match the settlements that everybody else got, including police. So the costs spiral ever upward, and towns are forced to cut back on libraries and roads. As Toronto city manager Joe Pennachetti told the Toronto Sun: “We feel like we’re banging our heads against the wall.”

There’s no good reason for salaries to go up so much, argues John Saunders, a consultant with Hicks Morley who advises dozens of municipalities. Firefighting is an extremely desirable job, and vacancies are scarce because people rarely quit. Last year, for example, there were more than 500 applicants for 20 firefighting jobs in the Ontario communities of Cambridge, Kitchener and Waterloo. In Cambridge, a first-class firefighter earns up to $99,397 a year, plus benefits and overtime. Yet despite the high demand for their jobs, firefighters get “retention” payments for not quitting.

Working conditions are pretty sweet too. Thanks to modern safety standards, there are very few fires left to fight. These days, most fire department calls are medical. To prove that they’re still needed, fire departments have been adding defibrillators and Jaws of Life, and frantically expanding their repertoires to respond to even minor non-fire emergencies. Still, there’s an awful lot of what we shall euphemistically call “down time,” which firemen fill by preparing meals, sleeping, watching television, polishing the trucks and rewinding the hoses.

It’s long past time to roll back firefighting costs, as cities across the United States have been forced to do. But in Canada, costs continue to escalate as unions demand even better benefits, shorter work weeks and highly desirable 24-hour shifts. Firefighters love 24-hour shifts because it gives them plenty of time off for their other jobs. Theoretically, they’re required to work seven or eight of these shifts in a 28-day period, but workers with plenty of seniority can wind up working just five or six shifts, according to Mr. Saunders. Some critics refer to the 24-hour arrangement as “a well-paid part-time job.” (As for how it’s possible to work 24 hours in a row, the answer is “down time.”)

Not even the smallest effort to control costs goes unchallenged. In Windsor, the union grieved a decision to pull a fire truck out of service in 2008, saying that the administration had promised to leave it in service until the new contract was settled, which still hasn’t happened. The arbitrator sided with the union and told the city to cough up $381,000 in theoretically lost overtime – $1,328 for each member of the fire department. Meanwhile, in Toronto, the firefighters’ union continues its endless war against Emergency Medical Services, claiming that a decision to stop dispatching million-dollar pumpers to lower-level 911 calls puts lives at risk. A consultants’ report said that a merger of fire and EMS could save the city significant money – but the tribal warfare is so bitter that it will never happen.

I have nothing against firefighters, personally. But times have changed. We can’t go on like this. I could write the same column about the police. You guys are supposed to protect us. But we can’t afford you any more
 
Hatchet Man said:
More fuel for the fire  ;D
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/a-nation-of-100000-firefighters/article13647608/

MARGARET WENTE
"A nation of $100,000 firefighters"

According to their official website, "Toronto Professional Firefighters Association ( TPFFA ) Fighting Back":

"Myth: Toronto Fire Fighters make more money than a ( sic ) Toronto paramedics.

Fact: If you look at the 2010 Ontario Public Sector Salary disclosure list for the year 2010 you will see 9.5% of Toronto Fire Service staff made the list. Toronto EMS had 20% of their staff make the list."

http://www.torontofirefighters.org/OSS/images/fightingback/mythsvsfacts.php





 
mariomike said:
MARGARET WENTE
"A nation of $100,000 firefighters"

According to their official website, "Toronto Professional Firefighters Association ( TPFFA ) Fighting Back":

"Myth: Toronto Fire Fighters make more money than a ( sic ) Toronto paramedics.

Fact: If you look at the 2010 Ontario Public Sector Salary disclosure list for the year 2010 you will see 9.5% of Toronto Fire Service staff made the list. Toronto EMS had 20% of their staff make the list."

http://www.torontofirefighters.org/OSS/images/fightingback/mythsvsfacts.php

Inflammatory percentages without the actual numbers, since I believe T-EMS has smaller amount of staff, their percentages would tend to skew higher.  I pulled up that particular sunshine list 20 paramedics (mostly level 3s with the odd level 2 and level 1) made the list, 15 FF's made the list, the rest would obviously be senior staff for both orgs.  Even still the comparison isn't even.  Paramedic's don't get to sleep half their shift, they will take naps/rest between calls if they are able to, but that would be a luxury during the shift.  FF's working 24hrs, not a chance they are awake all 24hrs.

Now last years is a different story 177 paramedics made the list, and only a handful of firefighters did.  The top end of wage of Level 3 medic is $42/hr, which is still less than what a 1st Class FF makes, as base pay.  So to me that spells overtime, which is on par with what many medics have told the news, they are understaffed, and overtime is a given.
 
Hatchet Man said:
  FF's working 24hrs, not a chance they are awake all 24hrs.

Mostly no,......but does it happen??......I happen to know it does.
 
Hatchet Man said:
Inflammatory percentages without the actual numbers, since I believe T-EMS has smaller amount of staff, their percentages would tend to skew higher. 

That true. TFS has 3,100 versus T-EMS 851 Paramedics.

For T-EMS you also have to factor in Shift Bonus, Stat Holiday pay, Meal Allowance, Wash up / Lock up time, A/R rates, Special Ops and FTO premiums etc. It adds up.

"Fact: If you look at the 2010 Ontario Public Sector Salary disclosure list for the year 2010..."

I did look at the 2010 Ontario Public Sector Salary disclosure list for the year 2010.

It showed a T-EMS Supervisor - just one rank above Paramedic -pulled in $223,936.56. Not including Taxable Benefits of $724.65.

Their union could have also posted that.

Hatchet Man said:
Paramedic's don't get to sleep half their shift, they will take naps/rest between calls if they are able to, but that would be a luxury during the shift.  FF's working 24hrs, not a chance they are awake all 24hrs.

"The ( TFS ) chief responded that firefighters get six hours of rest time during the shift, while remaining available to respond to calls."
http://metronews.ca/news/toronto/35819/work-schedules-of-firefighters-probed/

If the City of Toronto were to permit their Paramedics to work 24-hour tours ( 10 X 24-hours every six weeks ) they would be open to liability if an inquest were to determine a Paramedic's lack of sleep lead to the death of a patient or a member of the public.

August 1, 2013:

"Delegates adopted two important resolutions, including one that will result in an analysis of EMS in Canada to establish a strategy to maintain and enhance fire-based EMS, which is under increasing attack from paramedic associations and other groups."
http://www.iaff.org/canada/updates/policy_halifax.htm

In spite of the 'City of Toronto/Pomax report' released in June, their union shows no signs of giving up on Fire-based EMS.
 
mariomike said:
In spite of the 'City of Toronto/Pomax report' released in June, their union shows no signs of giving up on Fire-based EMS.

Of course, it's easier to camouflage the inefficiency and waste of sending huge expensive fire trucks plus associated personnel to medical calls, if they absorb the EMS service and can thus include EMS stats into their own.

 
Hatchet Man said:
Of course, it's easier to camouflage the inefficiency and waste of sending huge expensive fire trucks plus associated personnel to medical calls, if they absorb the EMS service and can thus include EMS stats into their own.

Maybe end up like NYC.

"On this site you will read about how The New York City Fire Department took over and wrecked the New York City Emergency Medical Service."
http://fdnyemswebsite.com/

 
mariomike said:
Maybe end up like NYC.

"On this site you will read about how The New York City Fire Department took over and wrecked the New York City Emergency Medical Service."
http://fdnyemswebsite.com/

This.... 1000 times this... While I have nothing against the bucketheads, amalgamating EMS into fire is a horrible idea. Firefighters are not Paramedics, and Paramedics are not firefighters... Putting them under the same umbrella is not going to fix anything or save money? Explain to me how a fire chief can truly understand the issues faced by overworked understaffed EMS crews... It just screams "recipe for disaster" Honestly, when people talk about cutting costs these days, they seem to slag police a lot... I honestly wonder why it has taken so long to finally take a critical look at the cost of a fire department.

I'm willing to bet taking one big red truck off the road would probably free up enough money to put two ambulances and PCP's in em, back onto the road... 

Of the two, which do you think (in an Urban center like Hamilton or Toronto) would end up with more calls for service in the end? my money is on the Amb.
 
Tommy said:
This.... 1000 times this... While I have nothing against the bucketheads, amalgamating EMS into fire is a horrible idea. Firefighters are not Paramedics, and Paramedics are not firefighters... Putting them under the same umbrella is not going to fix anything or save money? Explain to me how a fire chief can truly understand the issues faced by overworked understaffed EMS crews... It just screams "recipe for disaster" Honestly, when people talk about cutting costs these days, they seem to slag police a lot... I honestly wonder why it has taken so long to finally take a critical look at the cost of a fire department.

The bolded part, my thoughts, because they (broadly over multiple jurisdictions) have for years run very effective PR campaigns, that both make the public love, and scare the crap out of them.  All animals are naturally afraid of fire, so subtling hinting that if you look for savings in the FD, you will conversely put your home/business at risk of burning to the ground, makes for effective tactics.  The flip side is because they have been so damn effective, we as a society have pretty tough building/fire codes that make the risk of fires relatively small.  Schools are a prime example, fire drills are repeated endlessly, building materials are mostly fire retardent, and their sprinklers every where, when was the last time you ever heard of school burning (outside of deliberate arson)?? 

I'm willing to bet taking one big red truck off the road would probably free up enough money to put two ambulances and PCP's in em, back onto the road... 

I think that has been discussed previously..

Of the two, which do you think (in an Urban center like Hamilton or Toronto) would end up with more calls for service in the end? my money is on the Amb.

Toronto (and other jurisdictions) own stats betray them, over half their calls are to respond to medical calls.  And using some really weird logic, FF's and their reps argue that this strong arguement FOR amalgamation, and/or increasing resources.  To more rationale people it means a) trying to justify ones exsistence and b) resources should be focus on EMS, since they have 2 years MINIMUM of training and education, FF's an 80 first aid course, and oh yeah paramedics can actually transport.

In my perfect little world FF's would make around the 50-60k base pay mark, and work normal shifts like everyone else.  They would also focus solely on rescue operations (auto extrications, plucking people out of ravines and rivers), and fire operations.  I would also institute some type of tiered bonus/allowance scheme, based on the risk/hazard level one faced at such calls.  Something small like car fire or dumpster fire, would obviously be on the low end, a huge multiple alarm blaze at chemical plant, would garner the top level.  FF's wouldn't be dispatched to medical calls  either, the cost savings would be used to staff more ambulances and/or single ACP response vehicles. 
 
Back
Top