Civilians complaining about Police/Emergency Services' Pay

[mariomike]

Actually membership in a union is a requirement in some shops. For example where I work, it is mandatory to be part of the union as much as you may or may not want to be. Otherwise you can't work those jobs and therefore cannot have that job. It is not optional as it is written into the collective agreement that you cannot work those jobs without union membership. The only 'option' you have there is either not to be a part of the union and thereby be out of a job, or be a member and retain your job.

Our Local was founded in 1917. Maybe in olden times a man could go his own way. But, these days, you've got to play ball.

Our old union hall had a bar. So, there was a social aspect to the meetings.

 

[mariomike]

Saw this in another thread,

While I disagree about the word "huge", there's a whole other thread on this topic.

We used to run into the "I pay your salary" types. They would say something like, "I don't have it, so you shouldn't either."

I didn't reply. But, why couldn't they look at it this way instead, "They have it – why don't I?"

It's not a race to the bottom.

 

[lenaitch]

Saw this in another thread,



We used to run into the "I pay your salary" types. They would say something like, "I don't have it, so you shouldn't either."

I didn't reply. But, why couldn't they look at it this way instead, "They have it – why don't I?"

It's not a race to the bottom.

I used to work with a member who had this whole spiel worked out where he summarized his salary divided by the number of taxpayers, blah, blah that boiled down to an individual 'I pay your salary' contribution being a nickel, which he would pull out of pocket and give back.

 

[mariomike]

I used to work with a member who had this whole spiel worked out where he summarized his salary divided by the number of taxpayers, blah, blah that boiled down to an individual 'I pay your salary' contribution being a nickel, which he would pull out of pocket and give back.

No one handled the, "I pay your salary" better than Jack Webb.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I had a friend not believe we payed income tax. Had to show my pay statement to prove we did.

 

[mariomike]

Saw this in another thread,

In ON Paramedics aren't "Essential services". ( Yes, I know how stupid that sounds, but in fact, they can strike.

I'm only familiar with one department, in one province.

In just shy of 37 years full-time service, I was never on strike.

City of Toronto
[17] The outside workers have the right strike. The paramedics, however, are governed by ASCBA and they are subject to an essential services agreement. The Ontario Labour Relations Board (OLRB) resolves any dispute with respect to the number of essential paramedics, who must continue to work and provide services during any strike or lock out.

[18] mandatory interest arbitration, in-lieu of the right to strike and lock out, to resolve future disputes with respect to the terms and conditions of employment applicable to paramedics.

the Ambulance Drivers

Before one can apply to become a "driver",

1. Successfully completed a MOHLTC-recognized course for Primary Care Paramedic provided by a College of Applied Arts and Technology or equivalent.
2. Successfully completed the Advanced Emergency Medical Care Assistant (AEMCA) examination or be AEMCA pending as specified in the Ontario Ambulance Act.
3. Must be able to achieve and maintain current certification in Symptom Relief and Defibrillation under the Ontario Base Hospital Group and meet cross-certification requirements with Sunnybrook Base Hospital.
4. Must produce proof of mandatory immunization and maintain all immunizations as required and specified by the Ontario Ambulance Act.
5. Must possess a Class F Ontario Driver’s License, or better, and meet all requirements for licence maintenance as set forth in the City of Toronto’s Fleet policy and be able to qualify for the City’s equipment operating permits.
6. Must not be convicted of any crime involving moral turpitude for which a pardon has not been granted.
7. Must meet all requirements for employment as a Paramedic in Ontario as per the Ambulance Act.
8. Must not have had Driver’s License suspended for three years prior to application, and not have more than three demerit points issued against his/her Ontario driver’s licence.
9. Ability to pass oral, written and physical examinations pertaining to procedures used in emergency patient care as set by the Division.
10. Thoroughly familiar with the Highway Traffic Act and Municipal Traffic By-laws.
11. Must be physically capable of performing required duties.
12. Must be available to work rotating shift/weekend/night/overtime/on call duty in all environmental conditions.
13. Must be familiar with the Occupational Health and Safety Act and the regulations that apply to this work.
14. Proficiency in a second language, would be an asset.
15. Relevant work experience (i.e. paramedic, RN, MD, military, policing, any medical field), would be an asset.
16. Relevant volunteer experience (i.e. crisis, community involvement, mental health, shelters, etc.), would be an asset.
17. All City of Toronto employees are required to be fully vaccinated as a condition of hire in accordance with the City’s Mandatory Vaccination Policy.

Then comes the written evaluation, interviews, medical, physical testing...

I've been a Volunteer FF, in Ottawa,

Congratulations.

I worked for a career department. ie: Full-time only. No part-time, volunteer, reserve or auxiliary members. It's a career, not a hobby.

If you plan on becoing a full-time firefighter, last year, according to the Sunshine List, the highest paid firefighter in our town made $193,197.21 .

One of our paramedics made $241,119 last year according to the Sunshine List.

Then you get into the supervisors, managers, deputy chiefs and the chief.

 

[Bluebulldog]

I worked for a career department. ie: Full-time only. No part-time, volunteer, reserve or auxiliary members. It's a career, not a hobby.

Mike,

I'm not interested in a pi$$ing contest.

Your statements about Paramedics are true. But City of Toronto standards outside of the MOH requirements don't necessarily reflect all services. I know one person, last year. ( 9 months career college, preceptorship, and then hired).

As far as Fire? Ottawa has the largest hybrid dept. in the world. Covering an area larger than 5 other major Canadian cities combined. All Volunteers are NFPA 1001, 1002, and Haz Mat cert. ( Yes, I'm aware lots of other rural services are just a show up kind of organization).

I don't think I'd want FT, my other gig working Federally is pretty lucrative. Although your statement about Career Dept vs volunteer......same goes for RegF vs PRes? Literally the exact same situation.

 

[Bluebulldog]

I'm only familiar with one department, in one province.

In just shy of 37 years full-time service, I was never on strike.

Under the ASCBA, an ambulance service has to identify the number of paramedics who are "essential", but it does not prevent strike / lock out, only ensures that a specific number of personnel available for calls. ( How that differs from a normal compliment of staff seems odd).

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Under the ASCBA, an ambulance service has to identify the number of paramedics who are "essential", but it does not prevent strike / lock out, only ensures that a specific number of personnel available for calls. ( How that differs from a normal compliment of staff seems odd).

It's a whole stupid agreement they would have negotiated beforehand, "essential service".

100% stupid from the getgo.....the 2 Corrections "strikes" I was involved in really just meant we did the same job at half the staffing /cost to the Govt. So we basically paid for our own raises.

I tried to do my part to fight the stupidity by using an analogy that went like "This is like the Ford workers going on strike and telling Henry that we're going to build the same number of cars but at half the cost to you,....take that Mr. Ford."

Deaf ears.....

 

[Bluebulldog]

I tried to do my part to fight the stupidity by using an analogy that went like "This is like the Ford workers going on strike and telling Henry that we're going to build the same number of cars but at half the cost to you,....take that Mr. Ford."

Brilliant!!

 

[mariomike]

Saw this in another thread,

Not to digress in the thread too much.

PCP is a baseline for Paramedics, and currently it can be obtained with less than a year of career college, and a couple of months preceptorship. There also isn't a governing body for PCPs in ON. So if you somehow manage to get in, and you're lousy, it takes a lot to get you out. ACP...different story.

Our "farm teams" were Humber and Centenial colleges. Both were / are two- year, four-semester diploma programs.

Paramedic - Humber College

healthsciences.humber.ca

Centennial College - Paramedic

Centennial College's Paramedic program takes pride in its exceptional standards, high-quality graduates and high employment rates. You'll s

www.centennialcollege.ca

University of Toronto offers a four-year degree program.

Paramedicine | UTSC Calendar

utsc.calendar.utoronto.ca

IMHO, Paramedics get a crummy shake in ON ( I can only speak for my own province / experience).

I can only speak for my own province / department also.

Under the ASCBA, an ambulance service has to identify the number of paramedics who are "essential", but it does not prevent strike / lock out, only ensures that a specific number of personnel available for calls. ( How that differs from a normal compliment of staff seems odd).

You may know better than I do - no sarcasm intended.

I just know I was never on strike, and used this as a legal reference,

https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2019/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-130591.pdf#:~:text=The%20outside%20workers%20have%20the%20right%20strike.%20The,provide%20services%20during%20any%20strike%20or%20lock%20out.

As most services have PCPs start on a call-in / casual basis, often for up to 10 years. During that time, they have no benefits, and no sick days. Full time? Yes, absolutely, but the journey to get there often chews up decent folks, and spits them out.

I was full-time from Day One. There were no part-timers.

Permanent 40-hour / week schedule, station and partner from Day One.

Full benefits from Day One.

Was never "on call".

18 sick days a year. From Day one. It is not "use them or lose them" . You bank and accumalate them year after year. When you retire they are paid to you as a "gratuity".

I received a nine month sick bank gratuity when I retired.

Was a "probie" for 12 months. Some were on probation for 18 months. But, that does not affect any of the above. It just means they can let you go during that 12 / 18 month period.

The union would send a rep to hold your hand, but that was about it.

There was a Resiendency Requirement when I joined. But, that ended years ago.

Brihard said,

Particularly when the impacts of operational trauma are added to the picture, I don’t think it’s fair to undersell the risks paramedics face. I wouldn’t want their job.

They have a lot of support now. PTSD cases get transfered to a "suitable job".

Most importantly,

Employees who are placed in a permanent alternate position, due to an occupational injury/illness (as defined by the Workplace Safety & Insurance Board), will be subject to the normal assessment period and will receive the wage rate of the position to which they are assigned. If the pre-injury rate of pay is higher than the relocated position rate, then the pre-injury rate is to be maintained. It is understood that the pre-injury rate is subject to all wage increases negotiated.

My neighbour is a city firefighter for a department that uses 24-hour shifts, so, what, 7 days a month?

Something like that. 24-hour tours work out to 42 hours per week.
Not sure if they get lieu time or over - time to compensate, or if that's just the way it is?

We worked 20 twelve-hour shifts every six weeks.

Mine was 0700-1900

Mon, Tues, Weds, Thurs, Fri.
Mon, Tues, Wed,
Thurs, Fri

Repeat.

 

[Bluebulldog]

Mike,

I suspect that Toronto is the exception, rather than the rule.

My ex was Renfrew, and I can attest that everything I've said re. casual PT, and benefits is still true. Incidentally she waited 10 years, on rotational basis, call ins, no benefits, nor sick days, before she got full time. Now, their FT staff have unlimited sick days....

I have spoken with other services nearby, and it's much the same story ( Lanark, and Frontenac).

Similarly, a friend of mine joined Renfrew in 2021, after a 9 month program at Willis College ( Career college), 3 months preceptorship, and then hired on. ( Yes, the provincial exam had to be passed. ).

 

[lenaitch]

Mike,

I'm not interested in a pi$$ing contest.

Your statements about Paramedics are true. But City of Toronto standards outside of the MOH requirements don't necessarily reflect all services. I know one person, last year. ( 9 months career college, preceptorship, and then hired).

As far as Fire? Ottawa has the largest hybrid dept. in the world. Covering an area larger than 5 other major Canadian cities combined. All Volunteers are NFPA 1001, 1002, and Haz Mat cert. ( Yes, I'm aware lots of other rural services are just a show up kind of organization).

I don't think I'd want FT, my other gig working Federally is pretty lucrative. Although your statement about Career Dept vs volunteer......same goes for RegF vs PRes? Literally the exact same situation.

That's going to be changing effective this year:. Certifications inbound:

Law Document English View

Welcome to the new e-Laws. It’s now easier than ever to find Ontario laws. We welcome your feedback.

www.ontario.ca

 

[Bluebulldog]

That's going to be changing effective this year:. Certifications inbound:

I saw that somewhere earlier as well.

I think it's either going to be disastrous to rural municipalities in the terms of training costs. OR, the one term of reference used, was that an uncertified individual can perform work under a certified one. ( This kind of already existed as the FF I, and FF II, classifications.

But definitely a move in the right direction. A lot of rural Fire Services tend to have a high cowboy factor.

 

[lenaitch]

I saw that somewhere earlier as well.

I think it's either going to be disastrous to rural municipalities in the terms of training costs. OR, the one term of reference used, was that an uncertified individual can perform work under a certified one. ( This kind of already existed as the FF I, and FF II, classifications.

But definitely a move in the right direction. A lot of rural Fire Services tend to have a high cowboy factor.

Not sure either. There are some concerns that some members may just walk away. Remains to be seen. The government closed the Ontario Fire College and has started establishing 'regional training centres' hosted by professional full-time services around the province, so that may help. There will no doubt be an online component as well, if they don't screw it up and it can work in some pretty low bandwidth areas and allow the members time to complete - maybe paid time - it might work.

 

[mariomike]

Mike,

I suspect that Toronto is the exception, rather than the rule.

I suspect it may have something to do with the funding formula.

 

[Photopilot]

Like the CF, nobody wants to pay for Fire, Police or EMS until they or someone they care about needs their services. Then it is "Why does it take so long for....". No pleasing some people.

 

[stoker dave]

18 sick days a year. From Day one. It is not "use them or lose them" . You bank and accumalate them year after year. When you retire they are paid to you as a "gratuity".

I received a nine month sick bank gratuity when I retired.

Just to provide perspective (and in no way to denigrate the time off to which you are entitled as part of your employment) but that kind of thing is unheard of in private industry.

Where I work (and I think is pretty standard in my industry of engineering, consulting and construction), new hires get three weeks of 'comprehensive leave'. That is your sick leave, doctor appointments, trips to the dentist and vacation combined. Never get sick? You have three weeks of vacation. Prone to coming down with colds, the flu, hangovers and headaches? You get zero vacation. Carry-over from year to year cannot be more than the annual entitlement. If you are seriously ill or injured, short and long term disability policies kick in.

The allotment increases by one week for every five years with the company to a maximum of six weeks.

 

[mariomike]

Like the CF, nobody wants to pay for Fire, Police or EMS until they or someone they care about needs their services. Then it is "Why does it take so long for....". No pleasing some people.

The three services work together as a team.

For example, paramedics are not firefighters, but sometimes wear bunker gear and SCBA.

They are not police, but sometimes wear ballistic armour.

Other specialties include,

Public Safety Unit , Emergency Task Force , Rescue Task Force, CBRNE, Marine, HUSAR, Emergency Response Unit, Emergency Support Unit, Haz-Mat, Rescue Technicians, water and ice rescue, Multi-patient buses, Mobile Respiratory Treatment Units, etc.