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Challenger/"VIP" Jet/CF Chopper Use (CDS, others) [merged]

Good2Golf said:
Nevermind how the tasking came about, did you see on page 10 (marked 8/10) where a 2Lt called a Captain by his first name?  :o

Fully concur with G2G' comment above.

And here's another thing in this matter that leaves me wondering:

Aside from the inclusion of a smiley in a military communication, what business has a colonel reviewing a tasking request from a Minister in taking into consideration the good or bad press that the politician may get as a result? IMHO our job is to review requests of this nature on the basis of applicable rules and regulations (does the request infringe an applicable rule/reg/directive?), operational capabilities, availability and requirements, and any other military restriction that may be applicable. Once that is done and documented properly, it is not up to us to think about how it may end up looking for the minister or politician involved if it ends up on Youtube or become public knowledge through the press. In my view, to get to that level ends up involving us in politics and we, uniformed personnel, are not the government. We are a national institution that is to be, and be seen to be, outside of politics.

I am quite willing to debate contrary views.
 
It has to do with perception.  The Col. did in fact do the right thing to question this.  The optics don't just reflect badly on the MND but on the service as a whole.  Better that we have leaders actually willing to question the questionable than blindly follow requests under whatever "guise" it gets spun under. It has nothing to do with politics it has to do with professionalism.
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
Fully concur with G2G' comment above.

And here's another thing in this matter that leaves me wondering:

Aside from the inclusion of a smiley in a military communication, what business has a colonel reviewing a tasking request from a Minister in taking into consideration the good or bad press that the politician may get as a result? IMHO our job is to review requests of this nature on the basis of applicable rules and regulations (does the request infringe an applicable rule/reg/directive?), operational capabilities, availability and requirements, and any other military restriction that may be applicable. Once that is done and documented properly, it is not up to us to think about how it may end up looking for the minister or politician involved if it ends up on Youtube or become public knowledge through the press. In my view, to get to that level ends up involving us in politics and we, uniformed personnel, are not the government. We are a national institution that is to be, and be seen to be, outside of politics.

I am quite willing to debate contrary views.

Perhaps the Col had a good PAffO looking into the future. That would be right up their alley.
 
Crantor said:
It has to do with perception.  The Col. did in fact do the right thing to question this.  The optics don't just reflect badly on the MND but on the service as a whole.  Better that we have leaders actually willing to question the questionable than blindly follow requests under whatever "guise" it gets spun under. It has nothing to do with politics it has to do with professionalism.
+1 to this.  All possible outcomes both positive and negative should be considered when any request comes across your desk.  From a request to have a civillian SAR group attend an exercise, to speaking at a school on Remembrance Day for the past 10 years in a row.
 
eurowing said:
Perhaps the Col had a good PAffO looking into the future. That would be right up their alley.

Actually, the Col (now BGen) is a  pretty smart cookie and probably saw this coming without the assistance of a PAFFO.  I've worked for him and hope none of this crap gets deflected his way, as I personally think he raised the right ethical question.
 
Canadian.Trucker said:
All possible outcomes both positive and negative should be considered when any request comes across your desk.  From a request to have a civillian SAR group attend an exercise, to speaking at a school on Remembrance Day for the past 10 years in a row.
Concur - troops would be pretty blinkered if they thought, "no need to speak up about how this might make the CF look".

In other news, CP says the PM says the chopper flight was A-OK:
In Newfoundland and Labrador, where walking the floorboards over loved ones at sea is a sad custom, emails suggesting Defence Minister Peter MacKay used a military chopper under the "guise" of search and rescue training drew exasperated anger.

That sentiment was not tempered Friday as Prime Minister Stephen Harper defended MacKay, saying use of the chopper to get from a fishing lodge to the nearby airport in Gander, N.L., was for legitimate government business.

"I think the minister has been very clear and we've been very clear," Harper told a news conference in Burlington, Ont. "(He) was called back from vacation and used government aircraft only for government business.

"And I think that is appropriate."
....

Compare and contrast to this response in the House of Commons from the PM in September to the CDS using a Challenger to interrupt a vacation to be at a repatriation of six soldiers and a journalist:
Mr. Speaker, the Minister of National Defence has outlined the rules under which ministers use government aircraft. I have spoken to the Chief of the Defence Staff. He understands what those expectations are and is certainly prepared to live according to those rules.  As members know, the Chief of the Defence Staff does fly very frequently on government business, but obviously where there are alternatives we will look into that usage.
 
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the National Post, is a pretty fair assessment of Minister MacKay's Coromoront saga:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/12/02/stephen-maher-peter-mackay-may-be-a-knucklehead-but-hes-also-the-best-defence-minister-we-have-had-in-a-long-time/
Stephen Maher: Peter MacKay may be a knucklehead, but he’s the best Defence Minister we’ve had in a long time

Postmedia News

Dec 2, 2011

By Stephen Maher

When I was a carefree young newspaper reporter, I was once lucky enough to go for a ride on the beautiful Gander River, to take a picture of a rotting moose carcass.

It was a great day, sunny and cold, and as the boatman expertly steered the Gander River Boat through the rocky rattles, he told me funny stories about sly local salmon poachers. Twenty years later, from time to time I still think about what a great day that was.


Our defence minister, Peter MacKay, the knucklehead, could have had a great boat ride like that last summer, and the world would still not know how stunned he is.

MacKay was fishing at a salmon lodge on the same stretch of river in July, when he had to cut short his trip to catch an 8 a.m. flight from Gander to London, Ont., to announce a contract at noon.

Instead of enjoying a bracing morning run up the river, his office called in a Cormorant helicopter from the Gander search and rescue base, where crews stand ready to haul fishermen off sinking boats in the treacherous North Atlantic.

MacKay showed terrible judgment, unlike Air Force Col. Bruce Ploughman in Winnipeg, who advised against the trip.

“When the guy who’s fishing at the fishing hole next to the minister sees the big yellow helicopter arrive and decides to use his cellphone to video the minister getting on board and post it on YouTube, who will be answering the mail on that one?” Col. Ploughman wrote in an email.

It wasn’t a YouTube video that caught MacKay out, but Bob Fife at CTV, who reported on the trip in September.

Back then, MacKay stood in the House and portrayed his chopper ride as part of his duties.

“I cut the trip short to take part in a search and rescue demonstration,” he said.

That tissue-thin excuse collapsed when Allan Woods of the Toronto Star used access-to-information law to get Air Force emails.

One email says that the trip would be “under the guise” of search and rescue training.

Ploughman, who is smarter than MacKay, predicted that reporters would get the goods.

“If we are tasked to do this we of course will comply,” he wrote. “Given the potential for negative press though, I would likely recommend against it, especially in view of the fact that the Air Force receives (or at least used to) regular ATIs specifically targeting travel on CF aircraft by ministers.”

Like Prince William, who once landed a military helicopter at his girlfriend’s house, it looks like MacKay was showing off, having fun with equipment that should be reserved for serious business.

And he seems to have misled the House, which is the sort of thing that once led ministers to resign.

But he should not resign, because he may be a knucklehead, but he is also the best defence minister we have had in a long time, and it would be silly to let this mini-scandal end his career.

MacKay has had the job since August 2007, presiding over a golden period for the Canadian Forces.

During the Jean Chretien years, the military was starved of equipment and sometimes treated shabbily by Liberal politicians who saw our forces as a necessary evil. Under Stephen Harper, the Canadian Forces have received their due — and more.

MacKay has been the cheerleader-in-chief for the ramp-up and deserves credit for that, and for all the time he has spent connecting with members of the Forces.

He has also done a good job at military diplomacy, expertly toadying to our American friends and, I hope, privately reminding them at tedious length of our contributions.

He runs into trouble, though, when he identifies too closely with the troops. He is a politician, not a member of the Canadian Forces, and he should not play soldier.

For one thing, it is his job to watch how the soldiers spend our pennies.

In an exhaustive report on the Forces, retired Lt.-Gen. Andrew Leslie found massive recent growth in spending at DND headquarters, both on civilian employees and consultants. If retired bigwigs are signing sweetheart contracts with their former subordinates, don’t expect the media to find out.

Only MacKay is in the position to provide oversight. That requires a certain remove.

Too often, when opposition politicians do their duty and ask questions about the Canadian Forces in the House of Commons, MacKay accuses them of attacking the troops.

At its worst, during the painful debates about Canada’s treatment of Afghan detainees, it was chilling to see how far he’d go.

I think MacKay reacted so aggressively then because he was rattled. The government was too slow to act when the Department of Foreign Affairs warned that our Afghan allies were likely torturing detainees for whom we were legally responsible.

The documents are all secret, but I suspect the government — then brand new — relied too heavily on advice from the Department of National Defence and not enough on the advice from Foreign Affairs.

In certain Ottawa offices, Canadian politics is seen as a struggle between DND and DFAIT. When the Tories are in, it’s good times at DND HQ. When the Liberals are in, it’s bubbly at Fort Pearson.

As defence minister, MacKay’s job is to oversee DND, not be part of it. When you get mixed up about that you start thinking the Air Force should pick you up in a Cormorant so you don’t have to get up at sunrise for a very nice boat ride.

Postmedia News
smasher@postmedia.com


I think Stephen Maher's last sentence is very important ~ the MND is politically responsible for the Department of National Defence, which includes the CF. If we some of you screw up badly we expect him to take the political (and public relations) flack for you, even to the point of "falling on his sword" (resigning) to "cover" you (not cover for you, just provide cover while your mistake is corrected internally).

But I think Maher gets it badly wrong at the near end of the article when he talks about the detainee issue. He's right that, very broadly, DFAIT is "up" in Liberal times and DND is "down" and the reverse is true in Tory times but my, personal, take on the detainee issue is that DFAIT, not the CF, on the ground, screwed the pooch. The CF, on the ground, saw it, generally, as a minor irritation; it was more than that and DFAIT could have and should have seen the political importance of the issue and taken a lead role. Allowing a second string, junior staffer to cry wolf was the worst thing the Ambassador could have done; (s)he should have taken "ownership" of the issue and directed the CF commander in Kandahar to take some specified actions - and yes, boys and girls the most senior diplomats can and must be able to do that, to tell military commanders what to do and, more often, what not to do, within some well understood limits.

Anyway: yes, "knucklehead" is a pretty apt description for MacKay in this version of "Peter and the Wolf Chopper" but he is, all-in-all, a pretty effective knucklehead and the best course opoen to PM Harper is to ride out the storm. But, before too long, MacKau can and should be shuffled to e.g. Industry or Justice.
 
Imagine how much crap would fly if the media ATI'd the flight logs out of the Canadian Archives and actually found out how many hundreds of hours PM Trudeau flew around in the Army/CF Voyageur helicopters based out of Uplands (now Ottawa'a Macdonald International Airport) to various locations of friends cottages around the national capital region.  One would sure have to respect someone who thoroughly researched and came up with the numbers on that!  :nod:

Regards
G2G
 
Good2Golf said:
Imagine how much crap would fly if the media ATI'd the flight logs out of the Canadian Archives and actually found out how many hundreds of hours PM Trudeau flew around in the Army/CF Voyageur helicopters based out of Uplands (now Ottawa'a Macdonald International Airport) to various locations of friends cottages around the national capital region.  One would sure have to respect someone who thoroughly researched and came up with the numbers on that!  :nod:

Regards
G2G
In the early seventies there also was a "VIP" mod to the CUH-1Ns (not sure if the model number and letter is right) that included two airline seats in the troop compartment for lifting certain people around the area. I can't recall for sure, but I think 450 Squadron had a flight for that very purpose.
 
Not a great decision and live and learn.  But this guy is a VERY dedicated MND.  He is always there and willing to talk to the young troops. That is a real morale booster. 
I can recall almost a constant change of Ministers in my time-in 70s to 90s.  One guy, I liked Coates I think seemed down to earth but got caught in a late night club in Lahr. 
MacKay can brag on the number of times he has been to the pointy end or to other operations.
How is he supposed to get there hitch-hike. 
Harper's first trip when elected as PM was a surprise to Afghanistan, even the new GG went over.
How many times did Cretian or Martin ever mingle with the troops?
Planes are used for less.
I do recall the two biggest spenders in the last audit were #1 and #2, funny they travelled together and did co- habitats also it is only just down the road to Toronto.  So NDP should keep quiet.
 
Peter McKay’s Emails

http://canadianconservatives.wordpress.com/

Posted: December 2, 2011 in Uncategorized

So Peter McKay’s emails reveal questionable judgment about the use of military helicopters and the CBC, Globe and Mail, The Star, and the new liberal paper in Canada the National Post jump all over the story…

E-mails contradict MacKay’s explanation for chopper request – The Globe and Mail
MacKay helicopter airlift ‘under guise’ of training – CBC
Air Force warned about optics of MacKay’s fishing lodge flight – The Star
Peter MacKay’s story of search-and-rescue helicopter use contradicted by emails – National Post

However, when hundreds thousands of emails reveal that scientists have been fudging global warming data to achieve their political and funding objectives NONE of these news organizations considers it newsworthy.

Compare shall we. One questionable helicopter ride by Peter McKay vs the falsification of scientific data used to justify hundreds of billions of dollars in government expenditures around the world.

Thank God for Sun News!
 
I got a good laugh out of this one from the Gazette opinion page:

http://www.montrealgazette.com/opinion/editorial-cartoons/index.html

 
Former SAR CO puts some AFFF on the fire.

http://powerplayblog.ctv.ca/post/MacKay-plucked-to-safety-from-chopper-controversy.aspx

It’s chopper controversy down for Defence Minister Peter MacKay. He’s been hoisted into the clear by the only testimony that could save him from the political turbulence caused by his vacation rescue aboard a military helicopter.

The pilot who plucked him from a Newfoundland fishing lodge stepped forward today to salvage MacKay from his communications disaster by declaring it a “win-win” for the military and the minister.

The source is more impeccable than merely being an eyewitness to the exercise. As a retired commander of the search and rescue squadron, Maj. Stephen Reid has no reason to fall on a credibility sword for his former boss. And, bonus, he has enough bureaucratic experience to explain away some of those damning emails, which suggested MacKay was retrieved under the “guise” of a rescue exercise, as a headache-avoiding short cut through the military’s legendary red tape.

The only question left unanswered is why MacKay’s staff didn’t summon Reid to MacKay’s rescue long before those enterprising folks at iPolitics broke his story this morning. As Reid noted, he waited and watched MacKay’s stammering incomplete and inconsistent explanations on the file until he couldn’t stand it any longer and stepped forward.

Now, it’s not easy for me to ride to MacKay’s rescue on any issue.  The man has an irrational loathing of one former columnist who became a CTV politics show host. Yes, that would be me. Perhaps it had something to do with my biography on former girlfriend Belinda Stronach.

That aside, it’s only fair to point out that despite MacKay’s misleading spin and arrogant Commons demeanor, the notion he raised his hand to summon a search-and-rescue helicopter as his own big yellow taxi has lost its knock down punch. 

If the opposition parties refuse to throttle down their hysterical demands for MacKay’s apology or resignation, MacKay has plenty of high-calibre ammunition for return fire to make them look even more hysterical than usual in Question Period today.

In two sentences, Maj. Reid removed most of the political heat from the controversy.

“The flight would have been flown regardless of whether or not the minister was included because the squadron conducts two training events per day as part of a regular routine,” he declared. “In this case, a new flight engineer required hoist training, therefore the training intentions were well matched.”

So there you have it. It was a routine flight while MacKay’s hoist helped train a newbie looking for rescue experience and never dreaming it would include the Defence Minister.

It’s been a fun controversy to cover, exacerbated by horrible spin from a minister who used to excel at media relations, but there’s nothing more to see or say on this file. MacKay’s search for a rescue is over.

- Don Martin

 
More from Reid via the ipolitics article:
.... “The flight would have been flown regardless of whether or not the minister was included because the squadron conducts two training events per day as part of a regular routine,” he said. “In this case, a new flight engineer required hoist training, therefore the training intentions were well matched.”

While there is always concern about perception when it comes to the use of military aircraft, Reid insists the chain of emails that has been recently reported – suggesting the optics would be bad and that the training exercise was a “guise” — does not tell the full story.

“The email trail was contextualized that way because nobody wants to go through this heartache and headache when you have to try and explain something that really is quite legitimate, but very easy to target for political agenda,” he said. “So for the most part, you just try to avoid it. Nobody wants this headache. But the reality is, this was a great opportunity for us.”

The flight afforded the crew face-time with the minister, and MacKay a greater appreciation for the operations — what Reid considers an “obligation” for the lead minister in charge of search and rescue.

“This was an opportunity for us, we took it, and I think it was great,” he said. “I personally had a chance to have five or 10 minutes with him after we shut down to give him the latest update on our squadron and the issues we were facing. This was valuable to us, and that’s totally appropriate in my mind.”

The initial request for “potential” use came to Reid directly from National Defence Headquarters in Ottawa, which was “non-standard” since squadron taskings typically go through Winnipeg’s Air Force headquarters. This, he said, generated much of the email “banter” that has been made public recently.

“This was more of an internal debate as to who would answer the mail if someone eventually questioned this situation. This banter, in my opinion, was really only intended to prove a point to Ottawa that all requests for support needed to go through Winnipeg — how else could the Air Force stand to defend something they were not aware of in the first place,’” he said ....
 
Not quite on topic, but not worth a new thread, either, is this report on the MND's travel expenses, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/mackay-spent-1450-a-night-while-staff-settled-for-275-hotel-rooms/article2272354/
MacKay spent $1,450 a night while staff settled for $275 hotel rooms

Ottawa— The Canadian Press
Published Thursday, Dec. 15, 2011

The Canadian Taxpayers Federation is accusing Defence Minister Peter MacKay of living like a king while attending conferences in Europe.

The watchdog group has uncovered hotel bills through access-to-information laws that show the minister spent $1,452 a night for a two-night stay at a luxury hotel in Munich and $770 a night for three nights in Istanbul, Turkey.

Gregory Thomas, national director of the taxpayers federation, says the bills go beyond what most people would consider reasonable and pointed out that, in the case of the 2010 Munich visit, the Defence Minister’s staff had rooms in the same hotel for $276 a night.

He says his group decided to file an access request for Mr. MacKay's expenses after it was revealed in September that the Defence Minister had a search-and-rescue helicopter pick him up from a Newfoundland fishing lodge.

Mr. Thomas denies that the group is singling anyone out and says that the federation has requests in on other ministers as well.

He says cabinet ministers shouldn't be expected to stay in “dumps” when they travel, but the federation believes Mr. MacKay could have gotten a room for the same cost as his staff.


A $1,400.00 per night room does seem a tad pricey when we are looking for big, Big, BIG savings in DND's operating budget.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
A $1,400.00 per night room does seem a tad pricey when we are looking for big, Big, BIG savings in DND's operating budget.

Ummm, yeah, just a little......  ::)
 
I just hate it when they just bill the hookers to your hotel room....and then you have to break it all down for the claims' clerk when you get back......  >:(
 
:rofl:

I was thinking the same thing.....
 
I don't think it is unreasonable for the MND to stay at the hotel that a major Security Conference is taking place at and I think they were being fiscally conservative by ensuring the entire staff didn't stay there. Quick look at the participants list (http://www.securityconference.de/Participants.563+M52087573ab0.0.html) shows a ton of flag officers from various nations, Ministers of Defence, Foreign Affairs, Ambassadors, and senior executives. There was a high level of security for the conference and it probably made logistical sense to stay there too.

Of course the article made it sound like he was choosing to stay at the expensive hotel on a whim and relegating his staff to the meager accommodation.

 
2010newbie said:
I don't think it is unreasonable for the MND to stay at the hotel that a major Security Conference is taking place at and I think they were being fiscally conservative by ensuring the entire staff didn't stay there. Quick look at the participants list (http://www.securityconference.de/Participants.563+M52087573ab0.0.html) shows a ton of flag officers from various nations, Ministers of Defence, Foreign Affairs, Ambassadors, and senior executives. There was a high level of security for the conference and it probably made logistical sense to stay there too.
If it made logistical sense for the Minister to be there, it would have made logistical sense to have his staff team with him, too.

2010newbie said:
Of course the article made it sound like he was choosing to stay at the expensive hotel on a whim and relegating his staff to the meager accommodation.
I don't know if it was him, but someone had to decide where he stayed.  And most people working for the government are told to aim for the lowest rate in such situations.

E.R. Campbell said:
A $1,400.00 per night room does seem a tad pricey when we are looking for big, Big, BIG savings in DND's operating budget.
Here here....
 
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