Challenger/"VIP" Jet/CF Chopper Use (CDS, others) [merged]

[ballz]

Hmmm wonder where they got a copy of the message from? This is a shining f**king example of why we need to think before we post s**t on here... ullhair:

 

[ModlrMike]

This was sent as a CANFORGEN the other day. The "leak" could have come from anywhere.

 

[PuckChaser]

This was sent as a CANFORGEN the other day. The "leak" could have come from anywhere.

Yep, it was in my inbox this morning, both section inbox and personal inbox. Probably 150,000 recipients.

 

[ballz]

I realize it was mass distributed.

That doesn't change that it was also posted on a silver platter on Army.ca, which was STUPID, and then the next day became fuel thrown onto the media's fire (I just watched 3.5 morons on CBC discuss the memo as well), so it is a shining example (regardless of where the *actual* leak came from).

 

[aesop081]

That doesn't change that it was also posted on a silver platter on Army.ca, which was STUPID,

It is a publicly available document. Any reporter would not have even had to break stride to get a copy of it. In the end, who cares ? This is not a "leak".

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I realize it was mass distributed.

That doesn't change that it was also posted on a silver platter on Army.ca, which was STUPID, and then the next day became fuel thrown onto the media's fire (I just watched 3.5 morons on CBC discuss the memo as well), so it is a shining example (regardless of where the *actual* leak came from).

I think trying to blame this site, and the membership, is a little far fetched. Be indignant as you want, but be careful about where, and who, you're pointing it at. Our track record here is better than most and your outright accusation, sans any kind of credible truth, is not appreciated.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[ballz]

I think trying to blame this site, and the membership, is a little far fetched. Be indignant as you want, but be careful about where, and who, you're pointing it at. Our track record here is better than most and your outright accusation, sans any kind of credible truth, is not appreciated.

Milnet.ca Staff

Where is the "outright accusation" exactly? I am not throwing blame around, or pointing the finger, especially not at "Army.ca." I was actually impressed with how quick the mods took it down.

I am saying this serves as a perfect example, a reality check. I haven't been around particularly long but I had never actually seen any posts on here show up on CBC, etc. Heard about it lots, never witnessed it. Now, this is the example I will always fall back to.

It is a publicly available document. Any reporter would not have even had to break stride to get a copy of it. In the end, who cares ? This is not a "leak".

Is it publicly available (serious question)? All I knew was it was sent out on the DWAN (aka not public). On CBC they were saying it was "leaked."

 

[aesop081]

All I knew was it was sent out on the DWAN (aka not public).

Every email sent on the DWAN is public record.

On CBC they were saying it was "leaked."

A document that has no security classification and is widely distributed can hardly be "leaked" regardless of what the CBC says or thinks.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Where is the "outright accusation" exactly? I am not throwing blame around, or pointing the finger, especially not at "Army.ca."

Um, here?

.... it was also posted on a silver platter on Army.ca, which was STUPID, and then the next day became fuel thrown onto the media's fire ....

I'll second what someone said better than I could....

I think trying to blame this site, and the membership, is a little far fetched. Be indignant as you want, but be careful about where, and who, you're pointing it at. Our track record here is better than most and your outright accusation, sans any kind of credible truth, is not appreciated.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[cupper]

I think trying to blame this site, and the membership, is a little far fetched. Be indignant as you want, but be careful about where, and who, you're pointing it at. Our track record here is better than most and your outright accusation, sans any kind of credible truth, is not appreciated.

Milnet.ca Staff

I agree and wanted to post a comment similar, but opted not to in deference to my limited experience on the site regarding such matters.

 

[ballz]

Um, here?

Yeah, you're leaving out some "context" in those "...'s"

" so it is a shining example (regardless of where the *actual* leak came from). "

Anyway, you can all be offended if you want. I had no intent to accuse anybody of anything, regardless of how my comments were perceived.

 

[PuckChaser]

Every email sent on the DWAN is public record.

I hope no one ATIs some of my emails.  >

 

[The Bread Guy]

Latest to the defence of the Minister, CDS:  former Ministers Graham and Pratt & former CDS's Manson and Henault:

.... We the undersigned, having served in the past respectively as ministers or chiefs of defence, view with concern the recent attacks regarding the use of government jets by the current incumbents. Alarming the Canadian public with dollar figures that dramatically inflate the real cost of using the Challengers, while misconstruing the context and realities of that use, does a disservice to the Minister of National Defence, the Chief of Defence Staff and the people they serve.

Globe & Mail op-ed, 7 Oct 11

 

[Old Sweat]

And now the Hill Times, a paper for political junkies, has chipped in with a theory that the information was leaked by unknown people in the CF/DND trying to prevent budget cuts. The author has gathered a particularly unqualified group of commentors in terms of their knowledge of the inside details of the story.

http://www.hilltimes.com/news/news/2011/10/10/no-coincidence-leaks-on-vip-flights-by-mackay-natynczyk-come-on-heels-of-leslie-report/28424

 

[Good2Golf]

And now the Hill Times, a paper for political junkies, has chipped in with a theory that the information was leaked by unknown people in the CF/DND trying to prevent budget cuts. The author has gathered a particularly unqualified group of commentors in terms of their knowledge of the inside details of the story.

http://www.hilltimes.com/news/news/2011/10/10/no-coincidence-leaks-on-vip-flights-by-mackay-natynczyk-come-on-heels-of-leslie-report/28424

I don't believe this one...

Although Mr. Fife’s reports have cited military sources, it hasn’t stopped some from suggesting that the leaks are part of a long-standing rift between the Defence Minister and the PMO. It’s been speculated that the PMO has publicly shamed the Defence Minister and Chief of Defence Staff to make future cuts to DND publicly acceptable, while at the same time exerting political influence over Minister MacKay.

DMs report to the Chief Clerk, and the Chief Clerk (of the Privy Council) is an appointee of the PM.  Like it or not, the DMs effectively get their orders from the Executive, which in Canada is the Same as the Legislative ruling body...i.e. the Privy Council, which is the PM and his body of Ministers.

Regards
G2G

 

[The Bread Guy]

DMs report to the Chief Clerk, and the Chief Clerk (of the Privy Council) is an appointee of the PM.  Like it or not, the DMs effectively get their orders from the Executive, which in Canada is the Same as the Legislative ruling body...i.e. the Privy Council, which is the PM and his body of Ministers.

DM's are also appointed by the PM.

 

[Edward Campbell]

It is, in a way, our form of checks and balances:

1. Minister are responsible to parliament;

2. Ministers are appointed by the PM as part of his political calculus; and

3. Deputies are also appointed by the PM and they answer to him, through the Clerk, not to their ministers, as part of the PM's policy calculus.

The Clerk and the deputies constitute a semi-permanent, (broadly) non-partisan brake on the political process. They, the mandarins, have and maintain a "master plan" for Canada - they use their considerable skill and influence to keep their political masters as close as they can to that plan. They may not, should not subvert the political will of the government, even when it goes against the "master plan," but they should and do advise (warn) ministers about the consequences of some political actions. That "master plan" evolves itself, shifting slightly left and right as the Clerk, especially, and the deputies change to reflect the nature of the country. It's a bit complex, and not terribly tidy, but it actually works - quietly and, indeed, a bit cautiously: rather like Canada works.

 

[ModlrMike]

And now the Hill Times...

I see they're still spouting the inflated figures Mr. Fife used.  ullhair:

 

[aesop081]

I see they're still spouting the inflated figures Mr. Fife used.  ullhair:

You tell a lie often enough............

 

[The Bread Guy]

This just in:  government jets (this time, Transport Canada's) fly empty....

Canadian taxpayers are doling out millions of dollars a year for a fleet of sleek government executive jets that spend most of the time either flying empty or parked on the tarmac.

Detailed federal flight logs obtained by CBC News show that each of Transport Canada's nine Citation passenger jets spent an average of just over 300 hours in the air all of last year — less than six hours a week.

More than 70 per cent of that time, the seven-passenger luxury planes flew empty.

That means, on average, each of the roughly $5-million jets is actually transporting passengers for only about 90 hours a year, or under two per cent of their possible annual flying time.

Transport Canada pilots apparently have so little demand for their services that they frequently burn up jet fuel flying the planes empty just to maintain the minimum flight-time requirements of their aviation licences ....  In a prepared statement, Transport Canada said the planes often appear to be flying empty because "the pilots are also inspectors."

"This is why the aircraft may not have passengers on an inspection since the inspectors flying the aircraft will also be carrying out the inspection." ....