CH-148 Cyclone Progress

[Zoomie]

The RCAF is also the premiere customer for the H-92 airframe.  They are using us as a test bed for future evolutions.  Fly-by-wire and tail folding are two such systems that are being developed.

 

[aesop081]

The RCAF is also the premiere customer for the H-92 airframe.  They are using us as a test bed for future evolutions.  Fly-by-wire and tail folding are two such systems that are being developed.

We're the testbed......the German Navy is Sikorski's real target.

 

[Haletown]

Anyone know the differences in the S-92 airframe & the H-92 model ?

Ya'd think going fly FBW would drop a lot of weight but we heard here they need more HP, a stronger tranny and work on vibration issues.

 

[Zoomie]

Ya'd think going fly FBW would drop a lot of weight but we heard here they need more HP, a stronger tranny and work on vibration issues.

As a complete outsider to this program, I can only speculate.

/speculate mode
Mission gear, torpedoes, armour(?), RADAR, dipping SONAR, winches, folding tail assembly, etc would make the airframe considerably heavier than a passenger carrying one.

/end speculate mode

 

[h3tacco]

Probably not all inclusive but here are some of the top of my head.

The FBW is the biggest change as it is total change in the Flight Controls, Flight Modes, Flight Director etc. The aircraft subsequently have different handling and flight envelopes that requires a significant amount of certification. For example the Auto-rotation envelope for the S-92 and CH148 will be different as will basically all flight maneuvers.

Other changes include the following:

1. Folding head and tail which in turn means different main rotor blades. Different rotor head. Different Nr.

2. The cockpits look similar and share some of the same controls and displays but a number of changes were made to account for the different aircraft systems functionality. Different FMCDU from commercial S-92s. Armoured Seats. The addition of the Cable Angle hover. Interface between mission system and the FMCDU.

3.  Different variant of the same engine to produce more power. (Mostly software change)

4. Different Landing Gear and the addition of the RAST probe.

5. Changes to fuel sponsons to make them ballistically tolerant. Different amount of fuel.

6. Different All-up-weight. (ie changes again to flight envelope)

7. Changes to both the electrical and hydraulic systems (mostly to account for the mission system).

8. Changes to the MGB. 

9. Changes to the anti-ice system.

10. Changes to the Cabin to include new main door, 2 x GPMG mounts, changes to various avionics racks/storage, basic cabin layout is all new. Requires completely different egress certification.

11. Different Radio Fit and new ICS.

Some of these changes in themselves are fairly minor (ie new radios and amoured seats) but when they all add up they are significant. In addition,  all these changes are for the most part without considering the mission system which in itself are significant. The individual bits of the mission system of are mostly C/MOTS but the integration is all developmental.

Oh yeah almost the forgot the addition of Cup Holders to all crew positions. Although I am pretty sure this requirement has been already been demonstrated and isn't holding up delivery.

 

[GK .Dundas]

P
Oh yeah almost the forgot the addition of Cup Holders to all crew positions. Although I am pretty sure this requirement has been already been demonstrated and isn't holding up delivery.

Don't be too sure 

 

[The Bread Guy]

.... from the CF Info-machine on the status of the project:

.... Current Status: DND continues to closely monitor progress towards achieving all delivery requirements for the interim maritime helicopters, as well as the potential impact on the schedule for delivery of the final version of the Cyclone. The Canadian Forces expect to take formal delivery of the interim maritime helicopters later this summer ....

 

[The Bread Guy]

.... in the latest Fact Sheet (also attached if link doesn't work for you)....

.... Current Status: DND continues to closely monitor progress towards achieving all delivery requirements for the interim maritime helicopters, as well as the potential impact on the schedule for delivery of the final version of the Cyclone. The Canadian Forces expect to take formal delivery of the interim maritime helicopters in 2012 ....

P.S.:  If you click on the April version of the Fact Sheet, you'll note they've also changed the "ready by" date there, too.

 

[Kirkhill]

Helicopter Project. 
◦Acquisition: The first contract, worth $1.8 billion, was for 28 fully integrated, certified and qualified helicopters with their mission systems installed, to replace the Canadian Forces’ CH-124 Sea King helicopter fleet.  Delivery of the first helicopter was expected in November 2008. 
◦Maintenance/Infrastructure: The second contract, valued at $3.2 billion, was for 20-years of in-service support for the helicopters, and included a simulator, training suite, and the construction of a training facility

Is it just me or, in light of the discussions on the acquisitions of the Chinooks and the F-35s, is it curious that the "pie" appears to have been sliced differently on this project?

Wasn't/Isn't the "Infrastructure" portion of the more recent projects included in the Capital phase (simulators, training suite and training facility) vice the Maintenance Support?  Or was that just a ploy by DND to make the previous Liberal government look better by "backloading" the project and reducing the publicly announced capital allocation?  After all JC had promised that he could outbid Mulroney and get the job done for less than Cadillac prices.

How does the Auditor General compare those old line items to current line items?

 

[Good2Golf]

MHLH infrastructure was Vote 5 Acquisition funding, not Vote 1 O&M. 

There is a break out of the costs in the OAG Fall 2011 report, Chapter 6.

 

[Edward Campbell]

According to a report in the Globe and Mail, headlined Decades-long mission to replace Sea Kings hits another snag, the project has missed yet another milestone: "Sikorsky is pushing back on the [scheduled for Jne 2012] delivery, with still no official date being offered for the completion of the contract."

The report goes on to say that, "Sikorsky and the federal government are remaining vague about the problems with the Cyclone program, but it is clear the company is struggling to obtain the “airworthiness certification” that is mandatory for the helicopters to fly off on military missions. In addition, the company is still working to ensure the helicopters have the necessary engine power to meet the government’s mandatory endurance requirements."

 

[observor 69]

It was this paragraph, in the article, that caught my attention:

"The purchase is the latest in a series of problematic procurements by the Canadian Forces, such as the purchase of underperforming second-hand submarines and delays in acquiring search-and-rescue planes. The biggest controversy for the Harper government to date surrounds the mishandling of the sole-sourced $15-billion deal for F-35 fighter jets, which was the subject of a hard-hitting report by the Auditor-General this spring."

I mean when you put it that way. (Where's the sarcasm icon?)
Procurement policies historically prioritized by political calculation vice the best choice.

 

[Edward Campbell]

It was this paragraph, in the article, that caught my attention:

"The purchase is the latest in a series of problematic procurements by the Canadian Forces, such as the purchase of underperforming second-hand submarines and delays in acquiring search-and-rescue planes. The biggest controversy for the Harper government to date surrounds the mishandling of the sole-sourced $15-billion deal for F-35 fighter jets, which was the subject of a hard-hitting report by the Auditor-General this spring."

I mean when you put it that way. (Where's the sarcasm icon?)
Procurement policies historically prioritized by political calculation vice the best choice.

I just ignore those sorts of paragraphs ... they're about par for the anti-government course.

But they, the snide comments, might be useful if they can stir up a bit of comment over the summer while MPs are back home, in their ridings. The Prime Minister can be stirred into action to reform defence procurement if it is a "hot" enough political issue.

 

[observor 69]

Also two other quick thoughts that come to mind as a result of that para;
the "Rona Ambrose" method of procurement and a new "Navy" CDS.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Are we so far along the path that we can't get off and if we did cancel the contract is there a flying helicopter fitted for our needs out there?

 

[dapaterson]

Are we so far along the path that we can't get off and if we did cancel the contract is there a flying helicopter fitted for our needs out there?

Other considerations may include a fixed buget, with considerable sunk costs - if we walk away, there would be less money for the replacement solution.

 

[Lardofthedance]

The CH 148 is stictly a vehicle. It's sole purpose  is to carry the sensors to be employed; Radar, Sonar, EO/IR, etc. We know what we need and have for sensors for today's and tomorrow's missions, but the vehicle itself may prove to be another ball of yarn.

 

[agc]

CBC.ca

New military helicopters may not be ready for 5 years

Canada’s long-promised fleet of new Sikorsky naval helicopters, already four years late and $300 million over budget, likely won’t be delivered and ready for combat for up to another five years, informed industry sources tell CBC News.

 

[Haletown]

"informed industry sources"

Well that settles it.  Must be true. 

We always trust the CBC, especially when the report on things military.

 

[aesop081]

"informed industry sources"

Well that settles it.  Must be true. 

We always trust the CBC, especially when the report on things military.

Unfortunately, even a broken clock is right twice a day.