CH-148 Cyclone Progress

[Kirkhill]

Kirkhill, yes and no. 

Yes, in that there are two specially-modified UH-60M Black Hawk helicopters being operated as a US Army test program (started in ~2007, IIRC) to assess whether fly-by-wire (FBW) should be retrofitted to the existing UH-60M utility fleet. 

No, in the sense that these two helicopters are prototypes (and have been for the last five years), not production aircraft.

The Comanche advanced scout helicopter (prior to its cancelation in 2004) was the only Sikorsky helicopter prior to the Cyclone that had implemented a full FBW flight control system (FCS).  It's technology was clearly leveraged into the trial UH-60M program as well as the H-92 (Cyclone) program, with both the UH-60M FBW prototypes and the first H-92 aircraft flying with FBW FCS in 2007.

Sikorsky's CH-53K advanced Super Stallion will also have a FBW FCS.  The first prototype CH-53K (called the Ground Test Vehicle - GTV) is scheduled to commence powered ground testing in early 2013.

So, that makes 2 x UH-60M FBW test prototypes and the Canadian CH-148 aircraft as the only existing flying FBW products from Sikorsky at the moment.

Regards
G2G

That would seem to put them a long way back on the supply curve.  N'est ce pas?

 

[Good2Golf]

That would seem to put them a long way back on the supply curve.  N'est ce pas?

I do know from speaking with the PM Utility folks (program managers for the US Army's UH-60 fleet(s)) that it was a deliberate choice not to move ahead right away with FBW implementation on the UH-60M fleet beyond the initial two prototypes.  I would say that the US Army is relatively conservative regarding helicopter FBW flight controls. 

In that regard, the CH-148 Cyclone reasonably stands to be the first operational Sikorsky FBW-controlled fleet, as the CH-53K, while fully intended by the USMC to be fielded, is still in the initial ground test stages and the US Army has yet to commit to UH-60M FBW fleet fitment.

Regards
G2G

 

[The Bread Guy]

There are reports that Louis Chenevert, chairman of the corporation that owns Sikorsky, has conceded that the promised delivery of five Cyclone helicopters in 2012 and 19 more in 2013 (as part of the Defence Department’s maritime helicopter program) wont happen and, instead, Sikorsky is planning to deliver eight of the Cyclone helicopters in 2013.

More on that....

After another year of expensive delays, the first eight replacements of the Sea King helicopters are slated to arrive in 2013.

The government is negotiating a new delivery schedule for the CH-148 Cyclones after manufacturer Sikorsky missed its already-extended June deadline.

Although Ottawa isn’t commenting on the new schedule, the manufacturer confirms no helicopters will be delivered this year.

“There will be no shipments in 2012,”said Louis Chenevert, chief executive officer of Sikorsky’s parent company, United Technologies Corp.

“There’s likely to be a charge, but we’re still confident in our guidance.”

In a conference call this month with analysts and investors, Chenevert said the end is finally near for what Defence Minister Peter MacKay called “the worst procurement in the history of Canada.”

Chenevert said 24 of 28 Cyclones are in production, assembly or test stages. He said the company plans to deliver eight choppers in 2013 but did not say when the rest would be completed.

“As you know, the program has had some challenges, but we have made solid progress overall,” said Chenevert. “These will be truly fantastic aircrafts for the customer.” ....

Halifax Chronicle-Herald, 19 Dec 12

 

[The Bread Guy]

Another Info-machine update (also attached if link doesn't work)

(....)

    May 12, 2011: Arrival of the first interim helicopter (MH 806) at 12 Wing Shearwater.
    May 17, 2012: MH 806 left 12 Wing Shearwater for the Sikorsky facility at West Palm Beach, Florida to undergo modifications prior to returning to at a later date.
    June 7, 2012: Arrival of interim maritime helicopter (MH 804) to 12 Wing Shearwater.
    June 16, 2012: Arrival of interim maritime helicopter (MH 808) to 12 Wing Shearwater.
    August 3, 2012: Arrival of interim maritime helicopter (MH 807) to 12 Wing Shearwater.
    September 25, 2012: MH 806 returned to 12 Wing Shearwater after having underdone modifications at the Sikorsky facility in West Palm Beach, Florida

(....)

Current Status:

• Some critical work remains outstanding before the Canadian Armed Forces can take formal delivery of the first interim maritime helicopters. Most notably, a Canadian military flight clearance and training for the initial cadre of aircrew and technicians need to be completed.
• DND continues to closely monitor progress towards achieving all delivery requirements for the interim maritime helicopters, as well as the potential impact on the schedule for delivery of the final version of the Cyclone. The Canadian Armed Forces expect to take formal delivery of the interim maritime helicopters in 2013.

   
(....)

 

[Loachman]

"Underdone modifications"? Half-baked...?

 

[The Bread Guy]

"Underdone modifications"? Half-baked...?

Good one - I guess the spell-check didn't catch it because the wrong word was spelled correctly.

 

[dapaterson]

Or possibly a PAO accidentally let some truth get out.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

"Underdone modifications"? Half-baked...?

People likely thought it was powerpoint jargon.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Don't know which I like better.....

People likely thought it was powerpoint jargon.

or

Or possibly a PAO accidentally let some truth get out.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Another potential problem according to this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the CBC:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2013/06/25/pol-sea-king-replacement-contract-sikorsky.html?cmp=rss

Sea King helicopter replacement hits a new snag
Ottawa hires consultant to study if Sikorsky can deliver promised helicopters

By James Cudmore, CBC News

Posted: Jun 25, 2013

The decades-long project to replace Canada's 50-year-old Sea King helicopters has hit another snag, with the government now hiring an independent expert to study whether helicopter-maker Sikorsky is even capable of delivering a replacement as promised.

CBC News has learned that Public Works Minister Rona Ambrose has gone outside government and hired a consultant to study Sikorsky's work, and Canada's contract, to determine whether it's even possible for the U.S. helicopter giant to deliver the aircraft Canada ordered.

The details of the hire — or the review — are not publicly available and Ambrose's office has yet to provide more information, but Ambrose herself offered the news after questions from the CBC about Sikorsky and its contract.

"I have employed the services of an independent consultant and contractor to undertake a review of the ability of this company to deliver this to the government," Ambrose said.

The Defence Department's maritime helicopter project is the successor to the failed procurement of 50 EH-101 helicopters promised in 1992 by former prime minister Brian Mulroney. That program was cancelled in 1993 as part of an election promise made by Jean Chrétien.

For years, the program lay dormant as Canada's Sea King helicopters slowly gathered wear and tear.

In 2004, Sikorsky won a formal contract to provide 28 new CH-148 Cyclone helicopters to Canada.

The initial contract was worth $1.8 billion for aircraft, and an additional $3.2 billion for 20 years of maintenance and support.

Missed deadlines

Delivery was to begin in November 2008, but it never did. The deadline slipped, and then slipped again.

In 2010, Canada agreed to accept six interim helicopters with lesser capabilities than those ordered by DND, provided Sikorsky agree to deliver "fully compliant" helicopters beginning in June 2012.

So far, only four helicopters have been delivered — all of them interim, and none of them meeting even those lower "interim" standards, said Ambrose.

"I am very disappointed in Sikorsky," she told CBC News. "They have not met their contractual obligations to date. They have missed every deadline and every timeline in the delivery of even the interim maritime helicopter, never mind the fully compliant maritime helicopter."

With the Sea Kings now about to enter their 50th year of service, and maintenance costs soaring, the military is desperate for some form of new maritime helicopter.

The Royal Canadian Air Force realizes the procurement process is slow, and unless the military is able to begin training on some variant of the Cyclone it won't be ready to fly the new helicopters when they finally start arriving.

Now, CBC News has learned Public Works is refusing to allow the military to accept delivery of those four interim helicopters, because they allegedly aren't up to standards.

"The bottom line is that they have not met their contractual obligation," Ambrose told the CBC. "The interim helicopter does not meet the requirements of the air force, so we are not going to take delivery of a helicopter that is not compliant."

Sikorsky seems to be sensitive to Ambrose's criticisms, though it's not clear what it intends to do about it.

"We appreciate the minister's concerns and, consistent with our past practice, will not comment on any discussions we are having with the Canadian government," Sikorsky spokesman Paul Jackson said by email. "The program itself is among the most sophisticated ever conducted by Sikorsky, and it continues to move forward."

Regardless, the 4½-year delay continues to have an effect on military plans.

The air force is already working on how to keep flying its Sea Kings for years more. And that has consequences for the Royal Canadian Navy, too, affecting the long-planned upgrade of its Halifax-class frigates.

The upgrade is necessary to extend the life of the vessels, and naval planners had intended to use that lengthy work period to upgrade the ships' helicopter facilities.

The Cyclone is larger and heavier then the Sea King, and the landing decks and hangars need to be upgraded.

But with no deadline in sight for delivery of the final version of the Cyclones, the navy is planning to keep some of its frigates fitted for Sea Kings. That will necessitate a further refit for the ships, once the Cyclones actually arrive.

Ms. Ambrose is able to restrain her enthusiasm for DND and, indeed, her own officials. This business of resorting to "outsiders" ~ a committee of DMs to develop the shipbuilding strategy, a team of "outsiders" to examine the new fighter aircraft options and now this suggests that the Prime Minister shares her mistrust of the established bureaucracy.

I believe the level of mistrust extends well beyond procurement, per se; I'm guessing that the "top table" - the cabinet Priorities and Planning Committee and the Treasury Board - suspects that DND's military requirements are not well grounded in reality. If that's the case then expect a new white paper on defence in which another team of "outsiders" will redesign the CF. That process - outside "experts" writing the white paper - was a spectacular failure in the 1980s when the Mulroney government tried it, but it's been over 25 years so we have almost certainly forgotten that lesson.

 

[MarkOttawa]

"suspects that DND's military requirements are not well grounded in reality."

Such as 15 planned RCN Canadian Surface Combatant when the UK will have only these,

'The Royal Navy will be equipped with 19 frigates and destroyers"
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/strategic-defence-and-security-review-published--2

and  thus for the other major non-US NATO ally with global and independent pretensions

"The French Navy will see itself reduced down to no more than 15 first line escorts."
http://thinpinstripedline.blogspot.ca/2013/05/a-tale-of-two-defence-reviews-thoughts.html

Worth thinking about.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Canadian.Trucker]

So with all of these delays, what is the plan if Sikorsky can't deliver?  Continue to wait?  Look at a different helicopter?

I'm interested to find out since the Sea Kings are aging rapidly.

 

[Haletown]

Related . . .

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ring-my-bell-new-helicopters-for-canadas-coast-guard-014679/

S-92s for the Diefenbaker?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

"suspects that DND's military requirements are not well grounded in reality."

Such as 15 planned RCN Canadian Surface Combatant when the UK will have only these,

'The Royal Navy will be equipped with 19 frigates and destroyers"
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/strategic-defence-and-security-review-published--2

and  thus for the other major non-US NATO ally with global and independent pretensions

"The French Navy will see itself reduced down to no more than 15 first line escorts."
http://thinpinstripedline.blogspot.ca/2013/05/a-tale-of-two-defence-reviews-thoughts.html

Worth thinking about.

Mark
Ottawa

Not a completely fair comparison, Mark.

While the number of "escorts" seems out of whack, remember that the French and the Brits also operate aircraft carriers, amphibs, nuclear submarines, mine warfare crafts etc.

They can afford to operate with a smaller number of "escorts" because, unlike us these are not the only warships they have to face any given situation.

Aslo, bear in mind that there is a forceful debate going on in England over how the RN would have too few escorts to work with under this current projection of 19 DD/FF.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I find it sad that Sikorsky is no longer capable of producing a helicopter in an arena which they at one time owned outright. Maybe leasing some M-17's or KA-31's for trials will wake the industry up.

 

[Haletown]

I find it sad that Sikorsky is no longer capable of producing a helicopter in an arena which they at one time owned outright. Maybe leasing some M-17's or KA-31's for trials will wake the industry up.

anyone know the background on this ?

How much of the delay is the helicopter and how much is the mission equipment?

How much of the delay is Sikorsky screwing the pooch and how much is DND spec changing, ECR/ECP dicking around?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

As I recall we do have to shoulder some of it, but it's not like the company has never built a maritime helicopter before, they are the SME's for this stuff and if the military is asking for to much, they should have identified that up front as an issue. It is likely the company over promised what the helicopter was capable of and the military accepted their assurances at face value. Had this been Bombardier I would blame the military more as the company would not really have a clue. But this is the company that pretty much invented the maritime helicopter niche, screwing the pooch is unacceptable for them.  Igor is likely flopping around in his grave at this.

 

[HB_Pencil]

"suspects that DND's military requirements are not well grounded in reality."

Such as 15 planned RCN Canadian Surface Combatant when the UK will have only these,

'The Royal Navy will be equipped with 19 frigates and destroyers"
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/strategic-defence-and-security-review-published--2

and  thus for the other major non-US NATO ally with global and independent pretensions

"The French Navy will see itself reduced down to no more than 15 first line escorts."
http://thinpinstripedline.blogspot.ca/2013/05/a-tale-of-two-defence-reviews-thoughts.html

Worth thinking about.

Mark
Ottawa

Canada has 70% of the GDP of these countries, relies to a greater degree on exports for its GDP growth and has a much larger coastline. As  Oldgateboatdriver stated, we also don't have nearly the same level of capabilities to support like carriers.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

I'm in the 'very confused camp' on this whole procurement thing....

Here's my assumptions as of right now on this file:
1.  I'm assuming that if the government hasn't fined Sikorsky up the wazzoo, or outright cancelled the order, then there must have been some significant 'capabilities creep' after the contract signature.
2.  If no one at DND has been fired for the 'capabilities creep' and subsequent delays than there likely was political interference by the Liberals at the time of contracting to sign for something that DND advised them would not cut it, as the political necessity existed to get anything but the EH-101.

What I don't understand is if the above (2) assumptions are true (and even if they're not), why the Harper government has not bee more above-board about the situation.  Their secrecy on all this (and many other things they do) certainly gives the impression that they're 'managing things' and as such, they're responsible for the problems.

Anyone in a position to elaborate at all?



M.

 

[Haletown]

I have a memory of both parties agreeing to update the original spec to a new Fly By Wire design.  I seem to recall we got that upgrade as "a gimme" for accepting sched slippage.

When you factor in that the Cyclone is the H-92 which is based on the well known S-92, something went sideways.

The usual suspect in modern mil procurement is software. . .  might be a big player in this case as well . . .  esp the mission suite software.