CDN/US Covid-related political discussion

[Remius]

By that logic, the word "forced" is entirely meaningless.

You don't have to surrender to the police after committing a crime! You can just fight them and face the consequences!
You don't have to pay taxes! Just run to Iran or somewhere! They don't cooperate with your government.

You always have a choice.

But when the consequences of a choice are dire, and voluntarily imposed by an authority that really wants you to make an other choice, you are effectively forced into that other choice.

Such is the case when you depend on your job to pay your mortgage, feed your family and fuel your car, but your employer, backed by the state's mandates, suddenly wants you to take an experimental vaccine or face termination.

Except in the cases you listed you have to do those things. So yes you have to pay taxes and yes if you committed a crime you have to surrender to police. You have no choice in the matter and society will punish you otherwise. There is no contract that you agree to in those circumstances. You are forced to by law. No one is forced by law to the vaccinated.

Employment is a different situation. You have a contractual relationship with your employer that you can accept or refuse to accept. Conditions of employment can and do change and you can choose to remain or leave. There is no sanction beyond the termination of said contract by one party or another. (With every thing that can entail like severance for example)

No different than any other condition added by the employer. Your job might depend on you providing a credit or criminal background check. That may seem intrusive to some but it’s a requirement. If you don’t do it you can be terminated and will have to seek alternate employment. Perhaps employment that does not have conditions that you prefer not to have.

 

[Booter]

I've actually had the chance to discuss this very question with a Professsor in our department of immunology. His explanation was that some people are vulnerable to the proteins in the virus which casues a thickening of the fluid between the heart and the bag of tissue it sits in. The result is that weather you got the mRNA shot or the actual disease the risk of heart problems is the same.

Assuming this is correct, then the net benefit of vaccination to the general population would still outweight the risks since the myocarditis issue balances itself out (aka, youre fucked either way)

Now I'm just an IT guy and certainly no statistician or doctor but I think that makes sense?

This is also what’s in the literature. So both correct. I’m done with the vaccines myself- a very simple thing that would help in the future that isn’t tossed around- is with all the nonsense with counting injured and killed by Covid people- we need a specifically protocol for how to collect who died from a thing. The same across jurisdictions.

That seems like a pretty quick an easy first thing to help us in the future. For the next argument we have until society collapses and none of us can get vaccinated because medical science doesn’t exist anymore,

 

[Halifax Tar]

This is also what’s in the literature. So both correct. I’m done with the vaccines myself- a very simple thing that would help in the future that isn’t tossed around- is with all the nonsense with counting injured and killed by Covid people- we need a specifically protocol for how to collect who died from a thing. The same across jurisdictions.

That seems like a pretty quick an easy first thing to help us in the future. For the next argument we have until society collapses and none of us can get vaccinated because medical science doesn’t exist anymore,

Agreed. Accurate data is must.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Forced is a funny word. I wasn't forced into a line up and injected, but I was told to take the jab or lose my career and ability to support my young family.

Forced isn't the right word.

The proper term is "Coerced"

Coerce: persuade (an unwilling person) to do something by using force or threats.

 

[mariomike]

Had the vaccines been actually optional, much like the flu shot I never would have gotten them.

Optional for some. Mandatory for me.

Optional now. But, with "conditions".

 

[Remius]

When do conditions of continued employment become such that they have moved into something other than reasonable and voluntary?

Depends on the nature of the employment conditions and contractual agreement between employer and employee I would gather. Nothing holds back an employee from leaving at anytime.

As for the courts... This is the same organization that releases violent offenders over and over. The courts are as fallible and politically motivated as any other organizations.

I assume that the courts of appeal are not the same ones dealing with criminal cases. The Supreme Court I believe don’t deal with that stuff. Same with Human rights tribunals (which I think refuse to hear anything related to vaccines in the workplace) as a human right.

While I may be bound to follow their findings I don't put much weight in what the say. I'm just trying to keep a roof over the head of my daughter.

That’s your choice. I take a less libertarian approach to this stuff. As to keeping a roof over your family’s head I don’t discount that consequence as being a severe one as your lively hood gets put at risk. A consequence that is heavily weighted. I’d don’t envy those that had a true moral dilemma in that situation. I said it before, I respect anyone’s choice to take or not take that vaccine, but I also respect any organization’s choice to make that a condition of employment.

Had the vaccines been actually optional, much like the flu shot I never would have gotten them.

Again they were optional. You chose not to exercise an option. With good reason I will add and I understand your reasoning.

 

[Remius]

Forced isn't the right word.

The proper term is "Coerced"

Coerce: persuade (an unwilling person) to do something by using force or threats.

Something the CAF does everyday for a variety of things.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

The State has done many things throughout History, that at the time, were thought to be right:

It doesn't have anywhere near a 100% track record and it is absolutely OK that we question the methods used and call out coercion.

I took the Vaccine but do not believe in medical coercion. I will absolutely defend the rights of those against getting a vaccine to be free to make that choice without being subjected to coercion from the State.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Something the CAF does everyday for a variety of things.

CAF ≠ the General Population

CAF members were thought to have ceded certain rights but even that is changing and the Courts have ultimately rules against the CAF many times, hence why the Govt is now embroiled in numerous lawsuits...

 

[Remius]

CAF ≠ the General Population

I thought that the CAF is what we were talking about. Employers were free to decide if vaccination was a requirement and what the consequences of not meeting that requirement were. The government didn’t force that on anyone. The CAF took their own route and used the tools at its disposal.

CAF members were thought to have ceded certain rights but even that is changing and the Courts have ultimately rules against the CAF many times, hence why the Govt is now embroiled in numerous lawsuits...

Sure. And I am sure those will get sorted one way or another.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I thought that the CAF is what we were talking about. Employers were free to decide if vaccination was a requirement and what the consequences of not meeting that requirement were. The government didn’t force that on anyone. The CAF took their own route and used the tools at its disposal.

Sure. And I am sure those will get sorted one way or another.

The CAF has shown blatant disregard for the law on many occasions. I personally find it distasteful that you're OK with it.

It's that type of thinking which also leads to issues like not following Access to Information laws, Sexual Misconduct, Systemic Leadership issues, etc.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The State has done many things throughout History, that at the time, were thought to be right:

It doesn't have anywhere near a 100% track record and it is absolutely OK that we question the methods used and call out coercion.

I took the Vaccine but do not believe in medical coercion. I will absolutely defend the rights of those against getting a vaccine to be free to make that choice without being subjected to coercion from the State.

I harken back months ago when we discussing this. It still boggles my mind that people will so quickly and blindly fall in behind both government and big pharma/business.

All those organizations have track records littered with corruption and moral failings.

Like I said, I took the vaccine because the only option was to take it. Anything else would have had major consequences on our family unit.

I suppose some may say that's a choice. But so is being forced to admit guilt with a gun to your head.

 

[QV]

I harken back months ago when we discussing this. It still boggles my mind that people will so quickly and blindly fall in behind both government and big pharma/business.

All those organizations have track records littered with corruption and moral failings.

Like I said, I took the vaccine because the only option was to take it. Anything else would have had major consequences on our family unit.

I suppose some may say that's a choice. But so is being forced to admit guilt with a gun to your head.

That in itself is a phenomenon that should be studied.

 

[Remius]

The CAF has shown blatant disregard for the law on many occasions. I personally find it distasteful that you're OK with it.

Sigh. Where did I say that at all? I don’t mind the discussion and disagreement but try not to put words in my mouth.

It's that type of thinking which also leads to issues like not following Access to Information laws, Sexual Misconduct, Systemic Leadership issues, etc.

Right, now you are linking a whole bunch of stuff unrelated to the discussion at hand.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Sigh. Where did I say that at all? I don’t mind the discussion and disagreement but try not to put words in my mouth.

Right, now you are linking a whole bunch of stuff unrelated to the discussion at hand.

It's absolutely related to the discussion at hand. The CAF has a history of blatantly disregarding the law of the land for Its own cynical purposes.

The CAF tried it again with vaccinations and tried to use a whole bunch of ill-defined administrative measures to coerce people to comply.

I've seen the CAF use similar methods of coercion on other files. It's fascinating to see it in action

 

[Halifax Tar]

For what it's worth I declined the anti-malarial drugs for my AFG deployments.

The Dr was shocked when I said said no. But nothing was done about it.

 

[Remius]

It's absolutely related to the discussion at hand. The CAF has a history of blatantly disregarding the law of the land for Its own cynical purposes.

Comparing a vaccination policy to sexual misconduct. I’ll leave you and others to discuss that.

The CAF tried it again with vaccinations and tried to use a whole bunch of ill-defined administrative measures to coerce people to comply.

And if it is proven that the CAF violated anything from a legal stand point I would expect that at some point it will be held accountable if proven. So far it has not been. All we’ve seen is opinion but the facts are not actually bearing that out yet.

I’ll add in my personal opinion (and if you search way back I said as much) I thought that mandatory vaccinations for CAF members (and PS for that matter) was a little too much. I preferred a hybrid solution that included work accommodations (given the WFH in many cases) and regular testing for unvaccinated types.

That isn’t the way they went though.

 

[IKnowNothing]

Mandatory vaccination as a condition of employment should always come down to the health and safety parameters of the particular job. For certain jobs -Frontline retail/ food service, healthcare, jobs in high human density conditions- a mandated vaccine is completely reasonable, to the point where not doing so could arguably be exposing the business to liability for negligence.

With Covid things crossed a line when leaders of organizations thought that it was their place to use conditions of employment to push people into what they (the leaders) deemed as right, despite there being no actual health risk tied to the job that could be altered by the mandate. Work from home government employees would be a prime example.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Mandatory vaccination as a condition of employment should always come down to the health and safety parameters of the particular job. For certain jobs -Frontline retail/ food service, healthcare, jobs in high human density conditions- a mandated vaccine is completely reasonable, to the point where not doing so could arguably be exposing the business to liability for negligence.

With Covid things crossed a line when leaders of organizations thought that it was their place to use conditions of employment to push people into what they (the leaders) deemed as right, despite there being no actual health risk tied to the job that could be altered by the mandate. Work from home government employees would be a prime example.

Well now, isn't that a smug attitude, screw them, just not me?
Or did I read that wrong??

 

[IKnowNothing]

Well now, isn't that a smug attitude, screw them, just not me?
Or did I read that wrong??

I believe you did. Can you explain what you think I meant?

Basically what I was trying to say that employment driven vaccine mandates have merit as workplace health and safety policies, but not as general code of conduct policies.