Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ

[KevinB]

if I can bud in, an expensive, automated ship with a reduced crew is only good until the first shell penetrates below the waterline. Would HMS
Antrim, Glasgow or Argonaut have survived in the Falklands without adequate crew to continue fighting the ship and put out the fires? all the automation in the world can't put a patch over a shell hole. My 2 cents

Oh I’m tracking there.

What I am having trouble with is reconciling the disparate views, towards ship/fleet construction.

I hope we can agree that no-one is going to put an Aegis system and other expensive things on a disposable ship.

Due to crew shortages etc there is a requirement for some sort of reduced crew on some types of Naval vessels.

I suspect that the future will see mixed fleets that have outer rings of autonomous vessels, but key vessels will still be needed to operate at full crew sizes, not just to maintain their own vessels in combat, but also provide physical security and maintenance to the optionally/minimally crewed vessels.

 

[Kirkhill]

Oh I’m tracking there.

What I am having trouble with is reconciling the disparate views, towards ship/fleet construction.

I hope we can agree that no-one is going to put an Aegis system and other expensive things on a disposable ship.

Due to crew shortages etc there is a requirement for some sort of reduced crew on some types of Naval vessels.

I suspect that the future will see mixed fleets that have outer rings of autonomous vessels, but key vessels will still be needed to operate at full crew sizes, not just to maintain their own vessels in combat, but also provide physical security and maintenance to the optionally/minimally crewed vessels.

Korean research team ‘develop new drone detection radar based on high resolution algorthim’ - Unmanned airspace

Daegu Gyeongbuk Institute of Science And Technology (DGIST) has developed a radar system that can detect sub-miniature drones that are 3km away, according to an

www.unmannedairspace.info

Technology is getting smaller and cheaper.

What happens if, instead of putting all your surveillance systems on one ship you distribute it across a multitude of platforms and create a swarm of nodes?

The argument has been that most modern surveillance technologies leave you looking at the world through a straw. But what happens if the world is viewed through a multitude of straws? Ukraine isn't seen through a pair of God's Eyes, one Russian and One Ukrainian/American. It is becoming transparent because there are multiple sensors available at all levels.

....

Couple that with containerized munitions, optionally manned OSVs, Starlink level comms and CEC, not to mention Ukraine's shipless navy, and you have a different way of looking at the problem.

 

[Kirkhill]

So basically you don’t need a Navy with expensive ships?

if I can bud in, an expensive, automated ship with a reduced crew is only good until the first shell penetrates below the waterline. Would HMS
Antrim, Glasgow or Argonaut have survived in the Falklands without adequate crew to continue fighting the ship and put out the fires? all the automation in the world can't put a patch over a shell hole. My 2 cents

My sense is that the alternative to a Navy with expensive ships is an expensive Navy with lots of cheap ships with highly dispersed staff and lots of redundant nodes.

 

[NavyShooter]

So....back to the concept of the HMCS Bras D'or? With a bunch of fast, lightly armed, lightly crewed ships?

A concept that was discarded decades ago....?

I'm not sure what right looks like anymore on this.

I do know that we need ships, and we need sailors.

Truly, I think the beginning of the RCN's current problems all stem from when Seamanship Division was closed in Windsor Park. The statement painted on the wall that "IT IS THE SAILORS, NOT THE SHIPS WHICH CONSTITUTE THE NAVY" has been lost on a few generations of sailors, and leaders.

The ships will come, but the sailors will adapt to whichever ships they are given. If you have no sailors, then there's no-one to adapt.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The challenge is that the navy also has a lot of "Non-Combat tasks". Plus they spend lot of time during times of non-conflict and for Canada any conflict is likley to be far away from our shores.

The lessons of the Black Sea, applies to places like Red Sea, Baltic and Straits of Malacca, but not open ocean. Getting to the conflict zone and sustaining smaller manned/unmanned vessels is going to look a lot like the WWII MTB flotilla's. You need a vessel to carry them there and then a Depot ship to sustain and support them near the conflict zone.

 

[KevinB]

Technology is getting smaller and cheaper.

What happens if, instead of putting all your surveillance systems on one ship you distribute it across a multitude of platforms and create a swarm of nodes?

You still need longer looking ones, and certain niche ones, a rowboat isn't going to be able to collect, process or transmit the needed data.

The argument has been that most modern surveillance technologies leave you looking at the world through a straw. But what happens if the world is viewed through a multitude of straws? Ukraine isn't seen through a pair of God's Eyes, one Russian and One Ukrainian/American. It is becoming transparent because there are multiple sensors available at all levels.

Without getting into a topic that would be classified, I'll just say that you miss a lot in that comment above.

Couple that with containerized munitions, optionally manned OSVs, Starlink level comms and CEC, not to mention Ukraine's shipless navy, and you have a different way of looking at the problem.

Which is an issue in itself, you mention THE PROBLEM, but it isn't just one issue, there are multiple aspects.
Ukraine's shipless Navy is operating in a a relative bathtub. Solutions that work in small contested spaces, will not necessarily transfer over to larger AOR's.

AI and ML are not at the point (and hopefully never will be) that one can set autonomous machine loose to do your killing for you -- automation can help, and unscrewed systems can be additional enablers, but at the end of the day, everyone is best served if their is a human in the kill chain, for nothing else than being able to say no, and turn it off.

 

[Cloud Cover]

These small crew sizes seem to omit:

• crewed helicopters,
• drone operators;
• aircraft maintenance personnel;
• boarding parties;
• small boat operators;
• small arms experts;
• personnel under training;
• medical staff.

It would very much a challenge to crew a multi mission, 10,000 ton modern frigate/destroyer with fewer than 150 personnel for an extended deployment and be ready for the threats and events that arise.

 

[NavyShooter]

Agreed. As mentioned, a crew of 50 means actually about 20-ish people on watch at a time, and very limited ability to respond to other shipboard emergencies.

 

[Kirkhill]

So....back to the concept of the HMCS Bras D'or? With a bunch of fast, lightly armed, lightly crewed ships?

A concept that was discarded decades ago....?

I'm not sure what right looks like anymore on this.

I do know that we need ships, and we need sailors.

Truly, I think the beginning of the RCN's current problems all stem from when Seamanship Division was closed in Windsor Park. The statement painted on the wall that "IT IS THE SAILORS, NOT THE SHIPS WHICH CONSTITUTE THE NAVY" has been lost on a few generations of sailors, and leaders.

The ships will come, but the sailors will adapt to whichever ships they are given. If you have no sailors, then there's no-one to adapt.

You still need longer looking ones, and certain niche ones, a rowboat isn't going to be able to collect, process or transmit the needed data.


Without getting into a topic that would be classified, I'll just say that you miss a lot in that comment above.

Which is an issue in itself, you mention THE PROBLEM, but it isn't just one issue, there are multiple aspects.
Ukraine's shipless Navy is operating in a a relative bathtub. Solutions that work in small contested spaces, will not necessarily transfer over to larger AOR's.

AI and ML are not at the point (and hopefully never will be) that one can set autonomous machine loose to do your killing for you -- automation can help, and unscrewed systems can be additional enablers, but at the end of the day, everyone is best served if their is a human in the kill chain, for nothing else than being able to say no, and turn it off.

@NavyShooter - I also don't know what right looks like.

@KevinB - I am not looking at turning a switch tomorrow. You gave a nod to the value of incorporating AI and automation into the cockpits of Apaches, Blackhawks and Chinooks. You also gave a nod to the USN's Foundry program. To my way of thinking that is what the future looks like. Rapid incremental evolution.

It took the RN 50 years to get from HMS Warrior to HMS Dreadnought, Destroyers and Submarines connected by radio with fire control computers on board.

Re Bras d'Or.

The key element of the Bras d'Or was the intention to use Sprint and Drift tactics to secure the ocean transit lanes and permit safe passage.

The problems were a novel, high tech hull, limited carrying capacity and the need to keep a crew comfortable on board.

Bras d'Or was 50 m long and displaced 240 tonnes. She only had a range of 2800 km and required a crew of 25. Her carrying capacity was 4 to 8 Harpoons or an Oto Melara SR76 or a Towed Array. And Commodore 64 hadn't been launched yet and comms were primitive.


Now



From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sea Hunter

History
United States
General characteristics
Sea Hunter under way in RIMPAC 2022 exercises
Name	Sea Hunter
Builder	Vigor Industrial
Acquired	April 2016
Identification	MMSI number: 369970970
Status	in service[1]
Type	Unmanned surface vehicle
Displacement	135 tons (standard) 145 tons (full load)
Length	132 ft (40 m)
Propulsion	2x Diesel engines
Speed	27 knots (50 km/h; 31 mph)
Range	10,000 nautical miles (12,000 mi; 19,000 km)
Endurance	30–90 day without supply
Complement	None
Armament	None

Unmanned Surface Vehicle Mariner Next Ghost Fleet Vessel to Join the Navy - USNI News

ABOARD OVERLORD USV MARINER IN ANNAPOLIS, MD., – In a small ceremony on Tuesday, the Navy christened its latest Ghost Fleet Overlord unmanned surface vehicle, putting the service on a path to ramp up autonomy experimentation with its fleet of USVs. Mariner, which Gulf Craft built on spec at its...

news.usni.org

As of August 2022, the (Ghost)fleet consists of three ships delivered, the first is USV Ranger,[3] the second is USV Nomad,[1] and the third is USV Mariner.[4] The fourth ship, USV Vanguard, was built by Austal USA and launched on January 15, 2024.[5] In June 2021, there were two additional Ghost Fleet Overlord prototype USVs under construction and will be used to expand and accelerate the Navy’s experimentation and testing.[3]

While technically "uncrewed", the ships carry a crew of six human sailors. Most of the ship's functions are automated, but can be carried out manually by the onboard human crew if the need arises.[6]

Riley Claire, Mason G SPECIFICATIONS

Builder: Swiftships Designer: Swiftships Owner: Rodi Marine Inc. Mission: Carry passengers and cargo to and from offshore structures in the Gulf of Mexico. Length: 175' Beam: 25' Depth (molded): 13'

www.workboat.com

....


Sea Hunter looks a lot like an uncrewed Bras d'Or to me. Mariner sits somewhere between a Bras d'Or and a pre-WW2 Whaler being converted to Corvette status.

...

US Navy aims to field manned-unmanned fleet within 10 years

Several leaders at the Sea-Air-Space conference presented updates on key unmanned programs. Here are the highlights.

www.defensenews.com

...

Nobody is talking about AI Autonomy in the form of hulls in the water without supervision. The impetus is more along the lines of dispersing sensors and effectors over a larger number of hulls that are being controlled from multiple nodes - some afloat, some ashore and some airborne.

And it will be an evolution. Not a revolution. Historians will call it a revolution in a century.

....


PS Mariner and her sisters can carry a deck load of 200 to 300 tonnes. Or half a dozen TEU-40s. That means 4 Payload Delivery Systems with 16 SM6s or Tomahawks or 64 ESSMs with room enough for a Point Defence System with 60 VSHOR SAMs.

 

[Kirkhill]

Task Force 59 Launches New Unmanned Task Group 59.1

MANAMA, Bahrain – U.S. Naval Forces Central Command’s Task Force 59 commissioned a new task group focused on unmanned operations during a ceremony here, Jan. 3.

www.navy.mil

Navy's Task Force 59 reaches full operational capability as it works to build a 'digital ocean' of connected assets

Task Force 59 is developing a vast integrated network of sensors to enable a clearer picture of what's happening in the critical waterways it operates in.

defensescoop.com

 

[KevinB]

Perhaps we need to revisit one of your earlier ideas - a small well armored "pilot ship" that can plug into larger more capable vessels - then detach from the "exoskeleton" portion if it becomes damaged.

To me to make a ship better to run with minimal crewing, you would need to purpose built it to reduce any areas for flooding, and minimal maintenance areas -- honestly a small nuclear reactor would seem to kit that bill (but they it gets really $$$$), you also have a lot of tech that doesn't do well with EMP or other electromagnetic interference when you start trying to automate everything.

I just see shades of the Terminator every time folks push AI/ML and Uncrewed Robotic Systems...

 

[Kirkhill]

Perhaps we need to revisit one of your earlier ideas - a small well armored "pilot ship" that can plug into larger more capable vessels - then detach from the "exoskeleton" portion if it becomes damaged.

To me to make a ship better to run with minimal crewing, you would need to purpose built it to reduce any areas for flooding, and minimal maintenance areas -- honestly a small nuclear reactor would seem to kit that bill (but they it gets really $$$$), you also have a lot of tech that doesn't do well with EMP or other electromagnetic interference when you start trying to automate everything.

I just see shades of the Terminator every time folks push AI/ML and Uncrewed Robotic Systems...

With a lap top and a satphone does the crew in the lifeboat need to lose control of the situation around them?

 

[calculus]

This is somewhat concerning. Looks like the Aussies may be paring back there Hunter class to 6, from 9.

Controversial warship program survives as government prepares to unveil Australia's 'Future Navy'

Australia's troubled Hunter-class frigate program has avoided being axed following a sweeping review of the navy's combat surface fleet, with at least six and possibly several more of the large and expensive warships to be built over coming decades.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Cloud Cover]

Neat. Everybody just keep reducing the hull numbers if their Navy, it’s OK, no problem. We can use the ICC to resolve disputes

I like the 97 years of cumulative project delays figure for the ADF. What would Canada be? 3-400 years?

 

[Rainbow1910]

This is somewhat concerning. Looks like the Aussies may be paring back there Hunter class to 6, from 9.

Controversial warship program survives as government prepares to unveil Australia's 'Future Navy'

Australia's troubled Hunter-class frigate program has avoided being axed following a sweeping review of the navy's combat surface fleet, with at least six and possibly several more of the large and expensive warships to be built over coming decades.

www.abc.net.au

I've heard conflicting reports of them potentially ordering more Hunters, nobody knows until the actual review is released on the 19th.

Following the review, the program will instead deliver 16 Hunter Class frigates including eight in the new “up-gunned” variant and eight in standard anti-submarine variant, according to the experts speaking with Defence Connect under the condition of anonymity.

Surface fleet review carries Hunter Class changes in February release, say industry insiders

 

[calculus]

Neat. Everybody just keep reducing the hull numbers if their Navy, it’s OK, no problem. We can use the ICC to resolve disputes

I like the 97 years of cumulative project delays figure for the ADF. What would Canada be? 3-400 years?

More on the topic of delays:

Aussie auditors: 38 years of defense procurement delays - Breaking Defense

A total of 20 programs, including F-35 fighter jets to future Hunter-class frigates, face a combined 38 years of procurement delays, according to a new government report.

breakingdefense.com

The reporting in Australia is pointing the finger at AUKUS for the delays and outright cancellations of some programs. It appears they drastically underestimated the costs of joining the nuclear submarine club. A cautionary tale for Canada?

Defence faces budget blowout with Aukus nuclear submarines to cost more than scrapped French project

New analysis says major programs often end up costing more than is budgeted for and predicts inflation will impact on defence budgets

www.theguardian.com

AUKUS demands more transparency | School of Regulation and Global Governance

by Benjamin Herscovitch

regnet.anu.edu.au

Defence budget in the firing line to pay for new weapons

Maintenance and operating budgets for warships and other military platforms already in service are being squeezed to free up billions of dollars.

www.afr.com

 

[Kirkhill]

More on the topic of delays:

Aussie auditors: 38 years of defense procurement delays - Breaking Defense

A total of 20 programs, including F-35 fighter jets to future Hunter-class frigates, face a combined 38 years of procurement delays, according to a new government report.

breakingdefense.com

The reporting in Australia is pointing the finger at AUKUS for the delays and outright cancellations of some programs. It appears they drastically underestimated the costs of joining the nuclear submarine club. A cautionary tale for Canada?

Defence faces budget blowout with Aukus nuclear submarines to cost more than scrapped French project

New analysis says major programs often end up costing more than is budgeted for and predicts inflation will impact on defence budgets

www.theguardian.com

AUKUS demands more transparency | School of Regulation and Global Governance

by Benjamin Herscovitch

regnet.anu.edu.au

Defence budget in the firing line to pay for new weapons

Maintenance and operating budgets for warships and other military platforms already in service are being squeezed to free up billions of dollars.

www.afr.com

Or is it two governments with two senses of what is possible and what is desirable?

 

[Furniture]

View attachment 83087

With a lap top and a satphone does the crew in the lifeboat need to lose control of the situation around them?

Just to inject some reality into this discussion.

We can't get people to sail now, on real ships with fresh meals, TVs, couches, WiFi, etc., and you think getting people to jump into lifeboats to fight in the middle of the sea will attract or retain people?

 

[Kirkhill]

Just to inject some reality into this discussion.

We can't get people to sail now, on real ships with fresh meals, TVs, couches, WiFi, etc., and you think getting people to jump into lifeboats to fight in the middle of the sea will attract or retain people?

Why? Just why?

Reductio ad absurdum.

 

[Furniture]

Why? Just why?

Reductio ad absurdum.

Why? Because your premise of a small ship controlling larger ships with weapons doesn't stand up to reality.

Your smaller ship will need to survive the ocean, and also be comfortable for humans to operate. You can only go so small before it's not comfortable for humans in the ocean, and once it becomes too large it's a large and obvious target. Which would require defence measures, and damage control organizations... So it would become a full sized warship.