- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
No doubt.
Canadian police need more armour & firepower. The CF should not be needed to support.
- Thread starter Wizard of OZ
- Start date
- Reaction score
- 4,292
- Points
- 1,260
pbi said:
Its now called CONPLAN RAPTOR (MGen Leslie refused to have an operational plan named after a flower - he said "we are predators, not ruminants" and so I changed the name). It has been updated to reflect rthe CCPLOs.
Dave
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 230
What follows below is a reprint of an email received from an RCMP officer in Cold Lake Alberta regaurding the Mayerthorpe attack:
A SERVING MEMBERS PERSPECTIVE.
It Has To Be Said
It just has to be said. Things I feel that I must say in the light of the assassination of four of my brothers. First I must state that these are my personal views and are not necessarily the views of the RCMP or any governments I serve.
Before I start I would like to qualify myself, my back ground and training. I have been a very proud member of the RCMPolice for the past 15 years serving in rural Alberta. Prior to my full time engagement in the force I served as an Auxiliary member of the RCMPolice for 7 years in 2 detachments in B. C. I am an experienced and senior member of this force. My duties over and above general investigations and law
enforcement include providing ongoing firearms and use of force options training to the members of this force.
We all deal with grief and loss differently and as such I suppose is the reason I feel I must write this. Throughout my career I have often wanted to write letters to the editor frustrated with our justice system or inaccurate details published by the media. On many occasions we as a police force have been unfairly criticized based on partial
truths and limited facts presented by the media or persons of less desirable qualities. We as police officers quietly and professionally accept this as we are restricted (by civil and criminal liabilities, privacy laws, policies, and the potential of hampering good
investigations) to reveal all the facts to the Canadian Public. If the citizens of this great country were provided with all the situational factors when officers were criticized I'm confident they would support decisions and actions taken.
The loss of the 4 members last week is gut wrenching sad and a gigantic loss that has produced unbearable grief. This loss meant many things to many people but it definitely was not a surprise. The citizens of this great country have no idea what police deal with every day and night, no idea at all. On an average day we receive at least two e-mail warning of people who are dangerous to police for various reasons. Many are known to carry knives or guns and are eager to use them if confronted by police.
Unfortunately with what the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms has turned into limits police in proactively addressing the risk. In most of these cases we are unable to act until something bad happens leaving the public and police officers vulnerable. Police officers deal with violence more often than most people realize and are in fact put in very dangerous situations several times a day. Considering this, injury and death of our members is an expected occurrence. Unlike a soldier we often don't know who the enemy is.
In the near future we will see the media questioning and criticizing police action and policy over this situation. It is very easy when one looks back on a situation to provide a course of action to alter an outcome. Before the bashing starts I would like to state
these facts in expectation of the areas of criticism that I foresee.
First of all unlike large municipal police forces we have very limited manpower to police vast areas. In most cases we work alone and are forced into situations with little or no back up. The limited resources we have are based on our Provincial contract. Despite our efforts to increase our numbers the Province has not provided more
members and money requiring us to work with numbers allocated in the late 1980's. Despite population growth and crime rates I think we continue to provide an excellent service and have done a damn fine job.
It would have been nice to have placed 10 or more members on that farm to watch over things however those resources and costs are not available to us. The fact that they had two members there shows due diligence to the situation as many times I have guarded crime scenes by myself. I suspect that the fact of the members service level,
experience and training will come under attack.
I would like to say right now that if someone has the intention and planning to kill a police officer they will most certainly succeed. These 4 members were assassinated and provided with no warning or opportunity to react. Why would we place a junior member at a crime scene? How else does someone learning any trade or occupation gain experience and develop skills with out exposure.
As far as training goes I am proud to advise that the Mounted Police has one of finest training facilities and curriculum in the world. Our training produces police officers of the highest calibre. If this was not the case we would not be in such high demand by the
United Nations. We are continually called upon for peace keeping efforts and to rebuild and train police forces around the world.
As for national pride it should be known the Royal Canadian Mounted Police is the only police force in the world that polices at the municipal, provincial, national and international levels. That has to say something about our training and capabilities. Police officer safety is paramount in our training and recertification.
I further suspect that our justice system and Charter of Rights and freedoms will come under attack (or at least debate) as it most certainly should. I would like to state that I am (as are my colleagues) a strong supporter of our Charter as it guarantees our freedom within this wonderful nation. I further believe that the intent of this charter
was based on solid Canadian beliefs and wholesome values.
Having said that I further believe that legal defense sector has created a billion dollar business around cutting it up and making loop holes. I do not feel the present days accepted legal interpretations were intended when it was drafted. It is ironic that the very law that was created to protect freedoms as citizens has chained and handcuffed
the police. It has forced us without recourse to be victims of criminals and non productive members of our society. I would suggest that common sense, fairness, reasonable and probable are traits God has granted to most Canadians however withheld from some of our political leaders and our law interpreters.
Allowing the Supreme Court of Canada the power to veto proposed laws based on charter/constitution interpretation, limits our elected officials power for change. This in turn makes our democratic elections very superficial which is a frightening consideration.
I heard the father of one of the deceased Mounties say "something good will come of this loss" I have been able to see two good things. I have seen the Canadian people rally around their police forces with heart felt condolences, warm acknowledgments and appreciation for the work we do. For this we thank you, your thoughts, prayers and kind gestures touched the hearts of everyone in our extended family.
The second is that Canadians are looking at our justice system and I believe wanting change. If positive change is made and lives are saved because of it then these deaths have not been completely without cause.
In closing I wish to say, despite what the media or any appointed committees disclose about this occurrence please remember what I have written. There was no fault with the members, policy or the RCMP. The only thing that may have changed this outcome would have been empowerment of police officers to effectively and proactively address
this type of risk.
The badly needed increased money and manpower may have influenced this but likely not as the killer was focused and determined on his actions. If you feel change is needed (real change) to our Justice System I urge you do something about it. Flex your democratic muscle and force democratic change. As police officers we know who the drug dealers, rapists and psychopaths are but we need the tools to deal with them. The same law that defines their actions as illegal also prevents their actions from being stopped or them being punished.
We must put proper deterrents in our court system ensuring the message of poor behavior is not acceptable. This is our country and I feel we must provide our police with the power to protect people again. We as citizens must also have the confidence that our police officers will not abuse this power.
If you feel change is not needed don't feel obligated to do anything. Your police officers will continue to proudly serve Canadians in the professional way we always have but please understand the limitations restricting us. Most of all, please when the next police
officer dies don't say it was a surprise.
For those of you who read this whole letter thank you for letting me vent and grieve in this way. Please feel free to pass this on if you feel it has any merit, if not hit delete.
Cst. S. (Steve) Smith Cold Lake Det.
A SERVING MEMBERS PERSPECTIVE.
It Has To Be Said
It just has to be said. Things I feel that I must say in the light of the assassination of four of my brothers. First I must state that these are my personal views and are not necessarily the views of the RCMP or any governments I serve.
Before I start I would like to qualify myself, my back ground and training. I have been a very proud member of the RCMPolice for the past 15 years serving in rural Alberta. Prior to my full time engagement in the force I served as an Auxiliary member of the RCMPolice for 7 years in 2 detachments in B. C. I am an experienced and senior member of this force. My duties over and above general investigations and law
enforcement include providing ongoing firearms and use of force options training to the members of this force.
We all deal with grief and loss differently and as such I suppose is the reason I feel I must write this. Throughout my career I have often wanted to write letters to the editor frustrated with our justice system or inaccurate details published by the media. On many occasions we as a police force have been unfairly criticized based on partial
truths and limited facts presented by the media or persons of less desirable qualities. We as police officers quietly and professionally accept this as we are restricted (by civil and criminal liabilities, privacy laws, policies, and the potential of hampering good
investigations) to reveal all the facts to the Canadian Public. If the citizens of this great country were provided with all the situational factors when officers were criticized I'm confident they would support decisions and actions taken.
The loss of the 4 members last week is gut wrenching sad and a gigantic loss that has produced unbearable grief. This loss meant many things to many people but it definitely was not a surprise. The citizens of this great country have no idea what police deal with every day and night, no idea at all. On an average day we receive at least two e-mail warning of people who are dangerous to police for various reasons. Many are known to carry knives or guns and are eager to use them if confronted by police.
Unfortunately with what the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms has turned into limits police in proactively addressing the risk. In most of these cases we are unable to act until something bad happens leaving the public and police officers vulnerable. Police officers deal with violence more often than most people realize and are in fact put in very dangerous situations several times a day. Considering this, injury and death of our members is an expected occurrence. Unlike a soldier we often don't know who the enemy is.
In the near future we will see the media questioning and criticizing police action and policy over this situation. It is very easy when one looks back on a situation to provide a course of action to alter an outcome. Before the bashing starts I would like to state
these facts in expectation of the areas of criticism that I foresee.
First of all unlike large municipal police forces we have very limited manpower to police vast areas. In most cases we work alone and are forced into situations with little or no back up. The limited resources we have are based on our Provincial contract. Despite our efforts to increase our numbers the Province has not provided more
members and money requiring us to work with numbers allocated in the late 1980's. Despite population growth and crime rates I think we continue to provide an excellent service and have done a damn fine job.
It would have been nice to have placed 10 or more members on that farm to watch over things however those resources and costs are not available to us. The fact that they had two members there shows due diligence to the situation as many times I have guarded crime scenes by myself. I suspect that the fact of the members service level,
experience and training will come under attack.
I would like to say right now that if someone has the intention and planning to kill a police officer they will most certainly succeed. These 4 members were assassinated and provided with no warning or opportunity to react. Why would we place a junior member at a crime scene? How else does someone learning any trade or occupation gain experience and develop skills with out exposure.
As far as training goes I am proud to advise that the Mounted Police has one of finest training facilities and curriculum in the world. Our training produces police officers of the highest calibre. If this was not the case we would not be in such high demand by the
United Nations. We are continually called upon for peace keeping efforts and to rebuild and train police forces around the world.
As for national pride it should be known the Royal Canadian Mounted Police is the only police force in the world that polices at the municipal, provincial, national and international levels. That has to say something about our training and capabilities. Police officer safety is paramount in our training and recertification.
I further suspect that our justice system and Charter of Rights and freedoms will come under attack (or at least debate) as it most certainly should. I would like to state that I am (as are my colleagues) a strong supporter of our Charter as it guarantees our freedom within this wonderful nation. I further believe that the intent of this charter
was based on solid Canadian beliefs and wholesome values.
Having said that I further believe that legal defense sector has created a billion dollar business around cutting it up and making loop holes. I do not feel the present days accepted legal interpretations were intended when it was drafted. It is ironic that the very law that was created to protect freedoms as citizens has chained and handcuffed
the police. It has forced us without recourse to be victims of criminals and non productive members of our society. I would suggest that common sense, fairness, reasonable and probable are traits God has granted to most Canadians however withheld from some of our political leaders and our law interpreters.
Allowing the Supreme Court of Canada the power to veto proposed laws based on charter/constitution interpretation, limits our elected officials power for change. This in turn makes our democratic elections very superficial which is a frightening consideration.
I heard the father of one of the deceased Mounties say "something good will come of this loss" I have been able to see two good things. I have seen the Canadian people rally around their police forces with heart felt condolences, warm acknowledgments and appreciation for the work we do. For this we thank you, your thoughts, prayers and kind gestures touched the hearts of everyone in our extended family.
The second is that Canadians are looking at our justice system and I believe wanting change. If positive change is made and lives are saved because of it then these deaths have not been completely without cause.
In closing I wish to say, despite what the media or any appointed committees disclose about this occurrence please remember what I have written. There was no fault with the members, policy or the RCMP. The only thing that may have changed this outcome would have been empowerment of police officers to effectively and proactively address
this type of risk.
The badly needed increased money and manpower may have influenced this but likely not as the killer was focused and determined on his actions. If you feel change is needed (real change) to our Justice System I urge you do something about it. Flex your democratic muscle and force democratic change. As police officers we know who the drug dealers, rapists and psychopaths are but we need the tools to deal with them. The same law that defines their actions as illegal also prevents their actions from being stopped or them being punished.
We must put proper deterrents in our court system ensuring the message of poor behavior is not acceptable. This is our country and I feel we must provide our police with the power to protect people again. We as citizens must also have the confidence that our police officers will not abuse this power.
If you feel change is not needed don't feel obligated to do anything. Your police officers will continue to proudly serve Canadians in the professional way we always have but please understand the limitations restricting us. Most of all, please when the next police
officer dies don't say it was a surprise.
For those of you who read this whole letter thank you for letting me vent and grieve in this way. Please feel free to pass this on if you feel it has any merit, if not hit delete.
Cst. S. (Steve) Smith Cold Lake Det.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
I have much respect for cops, they got a ugly job to do and are often held back by civvy watch groups and legislation, but 'the show must go on'. It is sad to see that some people do not believe that violence does not occur in their community and refuse the tools to those that require them, because they feel that they do not require them. It is sad to see that some police dept. won't allow cargo pants because of public image, or that have the shotgun in the front of their cruiser looks too mean and are forced to lock it in the trunck, so that when they really need, they can't readily get to it. To some people, God forbid that the police wear cargo pants bloused into their boots and wear body armour on the outside of their uniform. It is sad to see that while some criminals have more firepower readily available than the patrol officer. I wonder how many lives will be lost or ruined because the cop was stuck with his 9mm pistol against the criminal with an AK, AR, or similiar because they were pinned down and couldn't retrieve the shotgun from the trunk, or because they weren't allowed to carry rifle caliber weapons because they look too militaristic... I wonder how many lives may be lost or ruined before some people will learn, that just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
Interesting fact.
The N.A.A.C.P. successfully lobbied the U.S. govt. to ban the use of Black Talon Controlled expansion hollowpoint Ammunition in law enforcement communities because (they said) it was developed specifically to injure or kill African-Americans.
Common sense isn't common! Not even close! :
Kind of makes you wonder what's next!?
Slim
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Slim said:Interesting fact.
The N.A.A.C.P. successfully lobbied the U.S. govt. to ban the use of Black Talon Controlled expansion hollowpoint Ammunition in law enforcement communities because (they said) it was developed specifically to injure or kill African-Americans.
Common sense isn't common! Not even close! :
Kind of makes you wonder what's next!?
Slim
i would love to see their rationale and evidence supporting their case....
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
Actually, Black Talon did not get banned, just changed. They lost the black coating, and started calling it Ranger XST. It is rumored that some Police Officers were referring to the ammunition as "Black Felon".... not too smart.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
Blackhorse7 said:
Hey all
We now use the ranger SXT on the range and performs pretty much the same way that BT did...The "colour" is just not as offensive! As for the Black Felon thing, I had never heard that before.
Seems kind of silly when you think about it... :
{quote]i would love to see their rationale and evidence supporting their case....
They probably just started to lobby various congressmen in the States, or turned it into an election issue...No problem in getting action there!
Slim
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
We are now using some new Winchester ammunition... I've no idea what it is called.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
The OPP have had Mini 14's for years. Many forces are talking about switching over to C-8's due to shotguns not carrying enough rounds to be usefull in a sustained fire fight. Once again, it is a question of money. No one has gotten outgunned at a distance any time recently, so a brother will have to get waxed before something constructive happens.
Now, if we could just get them to approve the switch, then subtly change the "8" to a "9" on the acquisition orders... :gunner:
Yee Haw! ;D
Now, if we could just get them to approve the switch, then subtly change the "8" to a "9" on the acquisition orders... :gunner:
Yee Haw! ;D
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
zipperhead_cop said:
I have a friend on the Peterboro Det who says that they are now doing traffic stops with them (mini14's and C-8's)
I should mention, however, that I have not seen this for myself. Durham still has the 870 in the car. Never seen anything else unless the TSU is out to play.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
I'm going to bet that they are referring to a high risk take down, where weapons are trained on the car being stopped. As a generality, long guns are not required for speeding soccer moms. 
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
zipperhead_cop said:I'm going to bet that they are referring to a high risk take down, where weapons are trained on the car being stopped. As a generality, long guns are not required for speeding soccer moms.
I don't think tht I've ever actually seen a long gun come out for a traffic stop (my experience is limited mind you) so I would have to agree with the above statement, although with sports parents they way they are these days... ;D
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
Definately for a hockey mom, but the soccer moms are all talk :
bllusc
New Member
- Reaction score
- 11
- Points
- 180
The OPP are using the C8 CQB in a semi-automatic version with 30 rd mags, which will replace the venerable Ruger mini-14 eventually. The Remington 870 shotguns are staying. Having just completed my 2 day conversion course with the C8, I can honestly say I haven't had a more enjoyable time on a range in a long time. The weapon is extremely accurate and a pleasure to fire. The only drawback is that Diemaco (Colt Canada) sold them the plastic mags that we got rid of in the CF ages ago. They are going to be replaced by metal ones soon!
The idea is to have every cruiser (Black and Whites!!!) deployed with a C8. I must say that the standard of firearms and IRD (immediate response deployment) training has increased and that the "average" uniformed member is a lot better trained tactically and with weapons than ever before. Our pistols are the Sig Sauer P229 .40 cal, a real cadillac of a pistol. Much better (IMHO) than the Glock I carried when I was with TPS.
Brian Luscombe
Highway Safety Division - OPP
The idea is to have every cruiser (Black and Whites!!!) deployed with a C8. I must say that the standard of firearms and IRD (immediate response deployment) training has increased and that the "average" uniformed member is a lot better trained tactically and with weapons than ever before. Our pistols are the Sig Sauer P229 .40 cal, a real cadillac of a pistol. Much better (IMHO) than the Glock I carried when I was with TPS.
Brian Luscombe
Highway Safety Division - OPP
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 260
Police get a Grizzly
Armoured personnel carrier to help with standoffs, riots
edmontonjournal.com
Published: Thursday, May 24, 2007
The Edmonton Police Service will today unveil an armoured personnel carrier intended for high-risk situations.
The Department of Defence donated the 1973 "Grizzly" to police, who then put $35,000 worth of work into it. The vehicle was painted and all weapons systems were removed. The police service plans to use to carrier as a defensive tool in incidents such as armed standoffs, riots and hostage situations.
Its primary use will be to protect officers and civilians at high risk.
The vehicle will also be available to the RCMP.
In 2006, a fatality inquiry report on the deaths of Cpl. Jim Galloway and Martin Ostopovich recommended that such a vehicle be available to police services in central Alberta. Galloway and Ostopovich were both fatally shot during a standoff in Spruce Grove in February 2004.
© Edmonton Journal 2007
Armoured personnel carrier to help with standoffs, riots
edmontonjournal.com
Published: Thursday, May 24, 2007
The Edmonton Police Service will today unveil an armoured personnel carrier intended for high-risk situations.
The Department of Defence donated the 1973 "Grizzly" to police, who then put $35,000 worth of work into it. The vehicle was painted and all weapons systems were removed. The police service plans to use to carrier as a defensive tool in incidents such as armed standoffs, riots and hostage situations.
Its primary use will be to protect officers and civilians at high risk.
The vehicle will also be available to the RCMP.
In 2006, a fatality inquiry report on the deaths of Cpl. Jim Galloway and Martin Ostopovich recommended that such a vehicle be available to police services in central Alberta. Galloway and Ostopovich were both fatally shot during a standoff in Spruce Grove in February 2004.
© Edmonton Journal 2007
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
Will have to see if, like many new toys, it will be too full of higher up muckity mucks and VIPs attending the scene to be of actual use...
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
Speaking of patrol rifles. All West Vancouver Police PCs have a patrol AR-15 in there. They will be slowly phasing to C-8 CQBs because their AR-15s are becoming old and unreliable. The Delta Police Department have G36s available to all members on shift, and anyone can go tot he armouries and sign one out for their PC. Keep in mind though Delta PD is also considered the country's best practice police force. They have all their members trained for Taser, and they're available just like the G6 to be signed out when ever the member goes on duty.
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 410
In Halton Region of southern Ontario, where I live at the moment, the Halton Regional Police carry both a Beretta and a taser system, and wear a police utility uniform with a protective vest. Our Region is a bit of an "island" between the high crime areas of Hamilton to the west and the increasingly violent Peel Region and T.O. city to the east, but that happy status is rapidly changing. Gun calls, once rare, are becoming routine, and the baddies are getting much badder. The high concentration of very upscale homes and lots of money in Halton probably makes it attractive to the scumbags.
On the subject of Police using AFVs, when I was stationed In Calgary in the mid-90s the CPS bought a used British Army FV432 tracked APC, which they painted in CPS colours (I saw it in the vehicle yard at HQ downtown). I don't know what happened to it, but it struck me as a bad idea for a police department: something light and wheeled would have been much better. As a former OC Adm Coy, I can say that any tracked AFV can be a maintenance pig: I wonder how a PD would look after such a beast? Right after the G8 Conference was over, I toured the CPS logistics site out at the Calgary airport. They had two South0-African built armoured wheeled tactical vehicles that were designed to assault aircraft. They were fitted with a hydraulic ramp on the roof, that could be controlled from inside the vehicle. I don't know what happened to them, either.
Cheers
On the subject of Police using AFVs, when I was stationed In Calgary in the mid-90s the CPS bought a used British Army FV432 tracked APC, which they painted in CPS colours (I saw it in the vehicle yard at HQ downtown). I don't know what happened to it, but it struck me as a bad idea for a police department: something light and wheeled would have been much better. As a former OC Adm Coy, I can say that any tracked AFV can be a maintenance pig: I wonder how a PD would look after such a beast? Right after the G8 Conference was over, I toured the CPS logistics site out at the Calgary airport. They had two South0-African built armoured wheeled tactical vehicles that were designed to assault aircraft. They were fitted with a hydraulic ramp on the roof, that could be controlled from inside the vehicle. I don't know what happened to them, either.
Cheers
Similar threads
