Canadian police need more armour & firepower. The CF should not be needed to support.

[Kratak]

Something that I feel I should point out about the police having C8's, is that I don't believe that every officer on duty would have one. I don't know about other police departments but the police where I live, in Abbotsford, BC, only have somewhere between 4 and 8 (can't remember the exact number) C8's on duty at any one time. And I got this information directly from a police officer in the Abbotsford Police.

 

[pbi]

I believe that someone said its not to be spoken about as it's classified. We as a forum should work very hard to respect that edict.

Slim

Without giving away unit identities, it was the RegF Cbt A unt that was assigned Immediate Reaction Unit (IRU) for LFWA. Each LFA is required to maintain a mobile Cbt A unit at certain levels of readiness for deployment to domestic emergencies. The IRU task is rotated around the Cbt A units of the resident CMBG, with additional assets added as the mission requires.

The Res CBGs in LFWA (and, I think LFCA if CONPLAN TRILLIUM still exists...) have important roles in domestic ops as well, but only in the humanitarian assistance emergency situations. ACP and ALEA are still normally only carried out by RegF Cbt A.

Cheers.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

"Each LFA is required to maintain a mobile Cbt A unit at certain levels of readiness for deployment to domestic emergencies. The IRU task is rotated around the Cbt A units of the resident CMBG, with additional assets added as the mission requires."

That said I wish it was taken more seriously (including myself).

 

[obsidian]

>>This might be a bit off topic, but has there been any word on whuch CF unit was called up for >>support?  Were they a reserve or reg force unit?


>>>I believe that someone said its not to be spoken about as it's classified. We as a forum should work >>>very hard to respect that edict.

>>>Slim

I know I haven't posted anything here that was restricted but you're right as far as the unit name goes, I'm not sure if that's ok to post so I won't just to be on the safe side.  I think most people however can guess just based on the equipment.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

The rotation schedule for IRU is normally "Confidential", which precludes posting on this website.   Basic capabilities and structure are not classified, though.   Each LFA is required to maintain an IRU, which is tracked at the DCDS level.   If an Area (for operational reasons) cannot fulfill its IRU commitment, another LFA will step up to provide a unit.   I know of at least one instance where this has happened (not on my watch).

That said I wish it was taken more seriously (including myself).

Me too...I've got a couple of war stories surrounding IRU readiness (or lack thereof)...causes a bit of chaos!

TR

 

[Barek]

First of all, my respect and gratitude goes to the fallen RCMP officers.  I am in the process of becoming a CF member to do my part but as of yet am still a civilian. But  I digress.

I watched the local news here in Ottawa a few days ago and the police chief of Ottawa made a statement that applies to this discussion. He said that in all grow-op busts that the Ottawa police use the local SWAT team to prosecute the warrant. No exceptions due to the high chance of dangerous offenders, associated with organised crime, and high-powered weapons, which they have found regularly.  They then showed footage of SWAT entering a local residence.

It saddens me that the brave men that fell doing their duty were not better equipped to provide them with every possibillity succeeding in their duty without sustaining mortal wounds. Please do not misunderstand me. I know that this was a local, small time grow-op, or considered as such, and they were not expecting the resistance that they received.  No one can be prepared for everything. And I am not commenting on the officers abilties, from the newspapers I have read on the individual officers they were of outstanding caliber. But I do feel that, as the Ottawa police chief pointed out, that there should be a set standard for shutting down grow-ops, regardless of their presumed size and possible threat. That, even for small grow-ops with little apparent risk, should be dealt with a minimum level of law enforcement power. It is unfortunate that men had to die to facilitate the change that is needed within the various levels of government to allow law enforcement to deal appropriately with illegal substances in this our country and I dearly hope that these mens lives will not be given in vain. That changes for better enforcement and safety, to both officers and civilians, will be implemented.

As the Bible says, "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends". My respect to all those called to risk their lives in the service and protection of others, I truly hope that I may serve, someday soon, in this great capacity and family.

 

[George Wallace]

Barek

You have misconstrued the situations.  Ottawa's Police Force does use its' Tactical Teams to "RAID" Grow Ops, and the RCMP and OPP use similar tactics also.  What happened in Alberta was not the actual Raid on a Grow Op, but the guarding of evidence after the fact.

 

[FGH_Recce_DJ]

Barek, talk to Blackhorse7, he is on the force and he could explain it better as to how the SWAT teams are used and how small detatchments are in the talking stage of having officers trianed in High Risk Tactics.

 

[Barek]

Barek

You have misconstrued the situations.  Ottawa's Police Force does use its' Tactical Teams to "RAID" Grow Ops, and the RCMP and OPP use similar tactics also.  What happened in Alberta was not the actual Raid on a Grow Op, but the guarding of evidence after the fact.

I intended to comment that while it was guarding of evidence after the fact. The fact still remains that the offender(s) where not in custody and assumptions, assumptions may be the wrong word here it could have been an commanders decision based upon limited intel, where made that the site was secure and not at serious risk of attack and that only 4 lightly armed and armored officers were needed. I am aware that surprises abound even in the best planned situations. I used the reference to Ottawa's use of SWAT for raiding grow-ops as a reference to how they look on the situation as "prepare for the worst and hope for the best" type of deal. In that they expect heavy armed resistance and are prepared for the possibility. I am aware that I do not have first hand experience on the matter and maybe no comments should be made into the discussion of what really happened or the tactical aspects of what happened considering that the actual events have not been disclosed and we are all making certain assumptions of what actually happened. But, without discussion, there willl not be any improvement in the way things are done to give those people in these situations the best chance we can give them of surviving. We need to be careful to discuss with care with reagard to the families and individuals involved.

Blackhorse7, I would be interested in understanding better the procedures for SWAT and ERT in Canada. I have a buddy that is looking into joining the OPP and going for SWAT or some type of ERT in Canada. If the subject is still too close to home I am in no hurry and would understand if you did not wish to discuss the matter further or so openly at this time.

 

[Blackhorse7]

First off, maybe some clarification of the events should take place.   I'll do my best to relay the facts as I know them....
1.   Baailiffsttend to the scene, with the intention of seizing back a truck that the suspect had stopped making payments on.   Due to the suspects known history, RCMPmbers attend as well to assist in a peaceful seizure.
2.   The suspect flees with the truck, reported by witnesses.
3.   Now I am not totally certain on this, but I believe it goes like this.   While on scene, members discover a grow op.   Two members are left at the scene to secure it while a search warrant is drafted.   NOTE - THIS IS COMMON PRACTICE IN ALL POLICE FORCES.
4.   During this time, auto parts that likely are related to stolen vehicles are also noted.   Edmonton Auto Theft Unit are notified.
5.   In the morning, two more members arrive.   One is off duty, bringing his recruit by to see his first grow op.   They speak briefly outside with two Auto Theft members, and then enter the Hut.   Gunfire erupts, and the suspect comes out of the Hut.   He exchanges gunfire with the Auto Theft members, being hit twice.   He then runs back inside the Hut.
6.   The Auto Theft members back off, and call it in.

It is surmised that the suspect snuck back into the property during the night, and lay in wait to ambush the members.   LET ME MAKE THIS VERY CLEAR.   It did not matter that the members were junior.   You could have had senior members there, and the results would have been the same.   It is common practice to have junior members guard a scene.   And in this case, the threat level was low, as the suspect was not there (to their knowledge).   To call out an ERT Team is a huge expenditure of both money, and manpower.   Often ERT members are from neighboring communities, which, at least in Northern BC, can be hours away.   Before you even get to that point, the Discrict OPS Officer needDistrictconsulted, and approve the deployment of ERT.   We are talking hours before they are on scene.  

And Barek, no problem to answer questions, 24/7.   Yeah, it's a tough time right now.   I cried myself to sleep on Thursday, but it this kind of stuff that draws us brothers in arms that much closer together.   I have friends in both the CF and the RCMP that are extended family, and always will be.   Two frequent posters in this forum know who they are.

 

[Blackhorse7]

Sorry, I don't know what my PC just did, but I was trying to correct spelling/grammar, and it just sent my post.  I'm more litterate than the last post suggests...

 

[Barek]

Thanks for the clarification on the events.  I had missed the part about it being a peaceful seizure. I will have to read more closely various news articles to better ascertain my facts before commenting.

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

One fact remains clear to all of those who serve in our uniform, or the RCMP's, this was an ambush.  All the training in the world will not prevent good troops from being vulnerable to ambush while carrying out routine duties.  When responding to a call, or out on patrol, troops and police are on high alert, and hard to ambush.  When carrying out technical or paperwork, they do not have, and cannot have the same degree of alertness, and do not have weapons prepared and in hand.  In these situations, the ambush is initiated by the injury or death of one of ours, I expect that it will swiftly be followed, as in Mayerthorpe, with the death of the attacker.  To serve your country in any capacity (police or military) is to knowingly place yourself in danger.  Civilians may believe it is possible to not ever have anyone hurt while dealing with armed and determined enemies, but we know this has never been true.  I expect to hear the usual criticism's about the training of the officers slain, but no training in the world will stop the first shot initiating an ambush; civilians simply cannot accept that in some jobs, you can do everything right, and still die.  By the same token, if the police would have had high powered assault rifles in their cars, the results would be unchanged.  This was not an assault by the police, but an ambush upon a crew doing technical work on a crimescene; weapons of whatever nature would not be in their hands.

 

[Blackhorse7]

I have to say, I'm not so sure about those last comments.  I have always been against this new "huggy, feely" verion of Policing that we seem to be developing in this country.  And i'm certainly not going to suggest that we have Police officers walking around with C8's or MP5's all the time, Ireland in the 80's style.  But given the fact that these guys were in a rural environment, doing scene security at a site where a known sociopath lived... if I had the option of having a slung C8 with me, I probably would have been carrying it.  That's just me though, and I've got a bit of a rep within my office for always looking at things from a tactical perspective.

That being said though, I would wager that 70% of the force would have done just what mainerjohnthomas said, and left the extra tools in the car.

 

[Wizard of OZ]

Blackhorse7

No disrespect intended as i to carry a badge but, you and i both know the conversation went something like this...  Guys guarding the scene(1) "bout time, what no fresh coffee"  Guys arriving(2) "Sorry no coffee did you guys see or hear anything last night" (1) We didn't see anything last night it was so cold and dark not even the rats were out" (2) Alright then lets get this done and over with, Rookie you are going to be in for a dozy your first grow op and not even a month in, lucky sob"

Operation/tactical safety was not the first thing on their mind.  It may have been the long night the cool weather or the fact that they were watching and did not see anything.  We all get complacent sometimes it happens at 330 in the morning and you are drowsy and it can happen at 1930 hrs after umteith traffic stop. 

It is truly sad that they had to pay the ultimate price and i am saddened by the lose of four members.  No planing could have prevented this an ambush is designed to inflict maximum injury with minimal exposere.  But from all tragedy's there are lessons to be learned.  I just hope we learn fast.  It was quite the event to see 10000 plus on parade on last Thurs day the heart felt emotion and support from all law enforcement agencies on this continent was truly amazing.

 

[FGH_Recce_DJ]

I think people think this guy was just some loon, this guy was trained in weapons and obviously tactics, take a look at this.....

The man who gunned down four RCMP officers on his farm was armed with three guns he hid under a white sheet he used to sneak back to his property, an Edmonton radio station reported Tuesday.

CHED Radio quoted police sources as saying James Roszko was armed with a military-style assault rifle, a hunting rifle and a pistol when he was found dead, along with the officers, in a metal Quonset hut near Mayerthorpe in northwestern Alberta on March 3.

Investigators believe he was able to sneak into the hut by using the sheet as camouflage against the surrounding snow, CHED reported. The radio station also said he wore socks over his boots to cover tracks and muffle sound.

The RCMP member who wounded Roszko in a final exchange of gunfire was apparently a member of the elite emergency response team.

The radio station said Roszko was hit twice in the groin, while another bullet struck the pistol he had tucked in his pants. It said a fourth slug hit the stock of the assault rifle he was using.

As the Mounties outside retreated, Roszko went back into the hut and killed himself.

CHED said officers who searched the building found a hidden compartment under the dirt floor. A source said it's believed the hiding place had been used to store weapons, but it's not known if he retrieved the guns from there.

Constables Peter Schiemann, 25, Anthony Gordon, 28, Brock Myrol, 29, and Leon Johnston, 32, were all shot and killed by Roszko in the worst modern-day shooting in RCMP history.

I don't think personally the officers fell alslasleepwere more worried about coffee, i think that the suspect had the training and the knowledge to use camocamouflage his surroundings in order to ambush the officers like he did, whether it was yourself Wizard of Oz or Blackhorse7, i think it wouldn't have mattered, whoever was on the scene would have been killed, My 2 cents, thanx guys!!

 

[FGH_Recce_DJ]

Why the spelling got messed up i have no idea glitch i guess.

 

[Blackhorse7]

Wizard of Oz,

Quite to the contrary, I agree with you, and that very likely is the way it went down.   I am just saying (with respect to better armour/weapons) that it is better to have and not need, than need and not have.   As was the case here.   And yes, even if they did have better firepower, they may have had it locked in the car.   I personally would not have.   You are doing scene security at a place that is out in the open, with long fields of fire to cover.   But you are right... other than Tim Horton's, a cop's worst enemy is complacency.   Or is it lawyers?   Well, you badge carrying guys that read this pick which is worst.   Maybe paperwork....   ;D

 

[sguido]

*snip*
... other than Tim Horton's, a cop's worst enemy is complacency.  Or is it lawyers?  Well, you badge carrying guys that read this pick which is worst.  Maybe paperwork.... 
*snip*

No...without a doubt, the absolute worst enemy is the civilianization of upper ranks.  Those liberal bean counters who have never carried tin, and know nothing about 'taking care of our own', the ones who make it necessary to have a bloated Association of useless kludges.

I'm not saying that there should be no civilian input, or oversight.  But there was a time once when a cop who gets IOD was taken care of properly.  The 'comp' claim went in, and there was no lapse in pay while you recuperated in hospital and at home.  Nowadays, you're *lucky* if you see a 'comp' check within a year.

 

[Wizard of OZ]

Wizard of Oz,

Quite to the contrary, I agree with you, and that very likely is the way it went down.   I am just saying (with respect to better armour/weapons) that it is better to have and not need, than need and not have.   As was the case here.   And yes, even if they did have better firepower, they may have had it locked in the car.   I personally would not have.   You are doing scene security at a place that is out in the open, with long fields of fire to cover.   But you are right... other than Tim Horton's, a cop's worst enemy is complacency.   Or is it lawyers?   Well, you badge carrying guys that read this pick which is worst.   Maybe paperwork....   ;D

Absolutely we should have more firepower there is no doubt in my mind that (espically rual areas) all the cars should have a long rifle or a something similar to c-8 or MP-5 in them.  Sometimes back up is 25 min away (sometimes more). 

As far as the worst enemy i don't know about Tims its like a symbiatic relationship that one.  Lawyers well they are made from the S*U* of the earth but they can only get you if you do sloppy work( or just bad case law) but i think the real enemy is some of the public who think they are street smart cause they watch CSI or Law and Order or (insert cop show here) and then try and pull the shit they see on TV in an interview room or in a vehicle stop.  That is the dangerous and stuff.  Paper that is bad but (i cant believe i will say this) a sometimes necessary evil.  The whole CYA thing you know so det commander comming in on Monday with his hind sight saying and you did this why?

ahhh the joys of a monday quarterback.