Canada's tanks

[KevinB]

IIRC it’s a 80/20 mix for Gas/Diesel in Armor Heavy CAB’s and 50/50 for Inf Heavy.
I don’t remember at all the Spt Coy

 

[Spencer100]

Future tanks! With the Russians now started pulling out the T-54/55 we should have kept our Centurions. You know to make it fair. What's it going to look like to future generations when exCAF leo2 are hitting T54s?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Can't speak for the Leo brigade, but a US ABCT has 6 x M978 HEMTT tankers (2,500 US gal each) with 6 x PLS trailers with fuel modules (2,500 US Gal each) which totals 30,000 US Gals within each of its three Combined Arms battalions. On top of that, the brigade's support battalion's distribution company has another 18 x M978s and 18 x PLS fuel module trailers for another 90,000 US Gals held within the company.

Canada's HLVW Refueler has the same capacity as the HEMTT (10,000 L/2,500 US G) while our tanker trailers are at 2,500L/825 US G. I'm not sure if there is an MSVS refueler in the system. Loggies please correct me where I'm wrong (I'm from the Jerry Can era). Not sure how many tankers of all types there are in the Cdn brigade. My guess is not even close to the US (which incidentally has USAR and USNG transport companies/battalions that specialize in POL management and transport above the brigade level.

I actually liked jerry can refuelling. It was quick in the harbour to pick up full cans, refuel, dump the empties and hit the road to a hide.

 

[FJAG]

I actually liked jerry can refuelling. It was quick in the harbour to pick up full cans, refuel, dump the empties and hit the road to a hide.

We switched to bowser fueling from jerry can fueling while I was a BK of an M109 battery. It greatly complicated the life on the gun line by slowing down the fueling process. Sure, the battery transport sergeant didn't have to fill, dump and collect jerry cans any more but the process changed from a drive down the line that took mere minutes to a tedious one where one vehicle was done at a time for as long as an hour or more to do the whole battery. Plus you couldn't do emergency runs up to the observers with a bunch of cans when they were running low and their company didn't have anything.

 

[Prairie canuck]

Sheesh that's about 50% of the vehicle allotment for 39 brigade.

From some photos I've seen some fuel tanks, with a built in pump, are built into a frame which is the same dimensions and attachment points as seacans. Wouldn't this allow for a truck to drop it at a refueling point then return to get a second which would be dropped at the same point. They could then grab the empty first one and return for more. etc. This would reduce the exposure of the truck as a static target would it not and possibly lessen the amount of trucks?

 

[dapaterson]

"By going modular we can reduce the number of trucks" is a great way to abandon lots of critical pieces.

There is a place for modular systems, but the number of prime movers should not be significantly reduced.

 

[MJP]

Can't speak for the Leo brigade, but a US ABCT has 6 x M978 HEMTT tankers (2,500 US gal each) with 6 x PLS trailers with fuel modules (2,500 US Gal each) which totals 30,000 US Gals within each of its three Combined Arms battalions. On top of that, the brigade's support battalion's distribution company has another 18 x M978s and 18 x PLS fuel module trailers for another 90,000 US Gals held within the company.

Canada's HLVW Refueler has the same capacity as the HEMTT (10,000 L/2,500 US G) while our tanker trailers are at 2,500L/825 US G. I'm not sure if there is an MSVS refueler in the system. Loggies please correct me where I'm wrong (I'm from the Jerry Can era). Not sure how many tankers of all types there are in the Cdn brigade. My guess is not even close to the US (which incidentally has USAR and USNG transport companies/battalions that specialize in POL management and transport above the brigade level.

No MSVS refueler, as it is the MLVW replacement

Most T-Fars (trailers) are used for gasoline vice diesel but that doesn't mean they can't be switched

I actually liked jerry can refuelling. It was quick in the harbour to pick up full cans, refuel, dump the empties and hit the road to a hide.

We switched to bowser fueling from jerry can fueling while I was a BK of an M109 battery. It greatly complicated the life on the gun line by slowing down the fueling process. Sure, the battery transport sergeant didn't have to fill, dump and collect jerry cans any more but the process changed from a drive down the line that took mere minutes to a tedious one where one vehicle was done at a time for as long as an hour or more to do the whole battery. Plus you couldn't do emergency runs up to the observers with a bunch of cans when they were running low and their company didn't have anything.

Jerry can trucks and caches are a pain with all the environmental restrictions in RTAs. Plus, they are a pain for everyone less the tanks crews as someone has to fill them all. We did it on a few exercises out West in recent years and it was just all around awkward to do properly

Not to say we couldn't go back to them come an actual operation though.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The Brits had/have this

 

[Furniture]

Jerry can trucks and caches are a pain with all the environmental restrictions in RTAs. Plus, they are a pain for everyone less the tanks crews as someone has to fill them all. We did it on a few exercises out West in recent years and it was just all around awkward to do properly

The CAF is already short on CSS people, I suspect using up our limited pers filling/moving Jerry cans, so the battery/squadron/company isn't inconvenienced on exercise is a bad idea.

Not to say we couldn't go back to them come an actual operation though.

I recall fuelling my Bison in Afghanistan with Jerry cans a few times, so I know for a fact we have done it operationally in the not-so-long-ago past.

 

[MJP]

The CAF is already short on CSS people, I suspect using up our limited pers filling/moving Jerry cans, so the battery/squadron/company isn't inconvenienced on exercise is a bad idea.

Yea that was part of it.

The CAF is already short on CSS people, I suspect using up our limited pers filling/moving Jerry cans, so the battery/squadron/company isn't inconvenienced on exercise is a bad idea.


I recall fuelling my Bison in Afghanistan with Jerry cans a few times, so I know for a fact we have done it operationally in the not-so-long-ago past.

Yea we only did jerry can refueling outside of KAF. In 2006 we even retrofitted the LAV 6 to carry 4-5 jerries of gas along the side of the LAV in addition to the 4 that could be put on the back. That was more individual vehicle sustainment and necessity as I don't recall there being any FARs that left the camp (don't even recall seeing them there but I could be wrong).

Not sure if if the tanks ech was supported by a HLVW/AVHS truck filled with jerries in Afghan days but it was the norm for them for years in addition to dropping a load of jerries at a cache/DP site. I suspect they must have give how soft of a target FARs would be even when compared to other B Vehs

 

[childs56]

The Military is always looking for a harder way to do things. Especially when it means change.
They are always looking at what they did, how it was so good. Fueling can not get any simpler then jerry can filling. Except it takes time for the supplier to fill those.
I have used jerry cans, slip tanks refueling trucks to fill up frac spreads when they are drinking fuel at 17,000liters(+) a hour on a oilfield location doing this for 24hrs a day. Labor intensive fueling crew running non stop to keep the tanks full.

This and other companies came out with a solution FracFueller™
The Military already had a set up similar but some where has lost their way and not as effective. I would set these guys up at your Resupply point. Fill away, you could fill the whole Bty/ Troop, Platoon all at once, or one at a time. How ever you want to do it. The set up is pretty portable and reliable that include army proof.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The Brits had/have this

I hated the hopper. The hose would come off as soon as you upended two full cans into it.

About the only time we refueled from the bowser was in a non tactical leaguer. All other refueling was done with jerry cans. A Centurion held 223 imperial gallons of gas (45 cans) Running replens are the fastest way to fuel and bomb up a squadron.

We also had boiling vessels. Much to the chagrin of the Infantry slogging by our tanks.

 

[KevinB]

Tanker Trucks don’t need just one hose/nozzle and pump.
There are some setups with 4, two each side, on front and rear. So they can do a 4 vehicle group at once - and it’s pretty fast.

Jerry Cans aren’t fast individually, it’s a PITA to do, and is just a gravity feed.
They work decently as a collective simply because you can get X for each vehicle.

Bladder systems are another good way - as long as enough hose/nozzle, pump setups are available that you aren’t doing a single file cluster.
There were/are some semi rigid wall bladders that resemble a CONEX box, but can be collapsed and collected ‘easily’ once empties.


Fueling should be a fairly easy task with several options available and the best relevant option picked for the situation.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Tanker Trucks don’t need just one hose/nozzle and pump.
There are some setups with 4, two each side, on front and rear. So they can do a 4 vehicle group at once - and it’s pretty fast.

Jerry Cans aren’t fast individually, it’s a PITA to do, and is just a gravity feed.
They work decently as a collective simply because you can get X for each vehicle.

Bladder systems are another good way - as long as enough hose/nozzle, pump setups are available that you aren’t doing a single file cluster.
There were/are some semi rigid wall bladders that resemble a CONEX box, but can be collapsed and collected ‘easily’ once empties.


Fueling should be a fairly easy task with several options available and the best relevant option picked for the situation.

But inefficiency builds character !

 

[OldSolduer]

Maybe consult a NASCAR pit crew on refueling?

 

[FJAG]

Tanker Trucks don’t need just one hose/nozzle and pump.
There are some setups with 4, two each side, on front and rear. So they can do a 4 vehicle group at once - and it’s pretty fast.

Jerry Cans aren’t fast individually, it’s a PITA to do, and is just a gravity feed.
They work decently as a collective simply because you can get X for each vehicle.

Bladder systems are another good way - as long as enough hose/nozzle, pump setups are available that you aren’t doing a single file cluster.
There were/are some semi rigid wall bladders that resemble a CONEX box, but can be collapsed and collected ‘easily’ once empties.


Fueling should be a fairly easy task with several options available and the best relevant option picked for the situation.

Multiple hose system may work in administrative or non tactical lagers, but aren't so useful on a dispersed and tactical gunline or tank and infantry hides. You can't break-bulk a tanker to send forward small packets of fuel to isolated or far forward positions. You're always going to need a combination to both maximize the bulk that tankers can carry as well as to cater to the tactical scenarios where a tanker is impractical or impossible.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I suspect a mix of tanker, bladder and Jerrican is the way. The tanker can locate at a hide one night, several bladders deployed and filled, tanker moves off. Site is camouflaged and guarded. At the next night vehicles cycle through and replenish, likley also picking up water and rations that arrived a couple hours earlier. Vehicle and equipment that can't be serviced this way are filled by jerrican, which are filled from bladders or tankers. Bladders could also be mounted on trailers as well.

 

[childs56]

You could mount a slip tank on the back of a Pickup, or other vehicle and use it to top up the equipment

 

[ueo]

From some photos I've seen some fuel tanks, with a built in pump, are built into a frame which is the same dimensions and attachment points as seacans. Wouldn't this allow for a truck to drop it at a refueling point then return to get a second which would be dropped at the same point. They could then grab the empty first one and return for more. etc. This would reduce the exposure of the truck as a static target would it not and possibly lessen the amount of trucks?

Governed by the avail pressure and nossels, resulting in the KMart lineups. Cans are easier to deploy as noted above and were preferred during my time as the TO (responsible for these ops} of a mech bn.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I've done almost every type of refueling in tanks, from every side. From slinging cans on the back deck to having my own echelons. Jerry cans are the way to go in tactical situations.