Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT

[GK .Dundas]

No one questioned the need to borrow up to 20 modern, mine-resistant battle tanks from Germany for the current mission in Kandahar, said the sources.



"It was clear that lives were being saved by their presence in theatre," said an official who asked not to be named.

But the debate over the purchase of the other tanks dragged on throughout last March and prompted the head of the army Lt.-Gen. Andrew Leslie, to put to his job on the line, demanding that it go through.


From the above article it seems fairly clear to me at least ( I've been looking at this situation for nigh on thirty years now) There are people in the Government of Canada and the Privy Council and even more disturbingly DND  who don't care how many troops they kill just so long as their ideologically based  need to prevent Tanks from being purchased is met. It dates back even farther to at least one completely cooked study just after the Arab -Israeli war of 73'. check out the name Ivan Head and the "Non -group".
If I'm out of line  I'm sorry but over the years I've seen one decision or another based entirely on the prejudices of a few people as opposed to hard military realties .The decision to do away with tanks as part of a combined arms battle group would have cost real human beings their lives.

 

[Haletown]

brave real echelon chair warmers always know what is best for the front line troops.

The longer they delay things, the closer they get to their pension dates. 

 

[ironduke57]

Just read the following at MP.net:

By the way, in today´s issue of renowned german newspaper "FAZ" there is an article saying the german DoD received a "Thank you" eMail from a canadian officer. He allegedly wrote "My crew stumbled upon an IED and made history as the first [crew] to test the [Leopard 2A6]M-packet. It worked as it should."

The driver allegedly broke a hip and the crew was battered, but the author was convinced they would have fared worse in any other vehicle. The tank itself however seems to be badly damaged and is suspected to be bought instead of given back in that shape.

Anyone heared about it/has more info?

Regards,
ironduke57

 

[ironduke57]

Noone heared anything?

Regards,
ironduke57

 

[Haletown]

just this

  http://www.sfu.ca/casr/ft-vehicle-casualties-1.htm

see the brief entry for  02 Nov 2007

 

[dapaterson]

Vehicle damage reports are not in the public domain.  If, for example, the enemy hit an LSVW, revealing the damage in a public forum may permit them to assess and adjust their techniques to enhance future attacks against LSVWs.

Basic OPSEC.

 

[ironduke57]

Ah, okay. But a pic of what is left of the tank would be quite interesting. Or if the tank is repairable. What this make especially interesting is that it is probably the first serious real battle damage to an Leo2.

Regards,
ironduke57

 

[dapaterson]

Ah, okay. But a pic of what is left of the tank would be quite interesting. Or if the tank is repairable. What this make especially interesting is that it is probably the first serious real battle damage to an Leo2.

Again, showing the enemy the effects of their handiwork would be a Bad Thing.  I'm curious about it, too... but I'd rather have our troopers home safe and sound.


If you want a nice pic of a Leo 2, take a gander at http://www.combatcamera.forces.gc.ca/netpub/server.np?find&catalog=photos&template=detail_e.np&field=itemid&op=matches&value=30711&site=combatcamera

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I don't think an LSVW is a good example seeing a hammer could disable that piece of crap.  Point taken mind you

 

[McG]

Ah, okay. But a pic of what is left of the tank would be quite interesting.

All pictures of battle damaged vehicles were declared SECRET on my tour.  Some get out by the media (possibly specifically approved ones) but, for the reasons above, we want to keep these pics as much under wraps as possible.

 

[Franko]

Battle damage of the panzers is considered OPSEC.  Full stop.

As for the crew member, he's recovering and doing fine.

Regards

The Army.ca Staff

 

[German Visitor]

Just read the following at MP.net:

By the way, in today´s issue of renowned german newspaper "FAZ" there is an article saying the german DoD received a "Thank you" eMail from a canadian officer. He allegedly wrote "My crew stumbled upon an IED and made history as the first [crew] to test the [Leopard 2A6]M-packet. It worked as it should."

The driver allegedly broke a hip and the crew was battered, but the author was convinced they would have fared worse in any other vehicle. The tank itself however seems to be badly damaged and is suspected to be bought instead of given back in that shape.

Anyone heared about it/has more info?

Regards,
ironduke57

Hi folks,

Maybe you are interested in the article from German Newspaper "Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung" (which is a serious newspaper, not a tabloid) about the blast. You need a subscription for the Newspaper to read it originally online there, but I put it in this post:
---------------
Unfreiwilliger Minentest
Kanadier dankt für deutschen Leopard-Panzer

Manchmal ist es auch freundliche, ja geradezu herzliche Post, die das Verteidigungsministerium von den Verbündeten im Afghanistan-Einsatz erhält. So etwa eine E-Mail, die mit dem Betreff "Thanks" kürzlich einging. Sie kam von einem kanadischen Offizier, der, wie er schrieb, sich für den neuen Panzer bedanken wollte, der nämlich neulich nachts sein Leben und das seiner Mannschaft gerettet habe. Es geht um einen Satz Leopard-2-Kampfpanzer, den die Bundeswehr an die Kanadier für den Afghanistan-Einsatz abgegeben hat - leihweise sozusagen. Dazu wurden die 20 "Leos" für die Einsatzerfordernisse umgerüstet, unter anderem durch zusätzlichen Minenschutz, weswegen die Typenbezeichnung 2A6 mit einem "M" ergänzt wurde. "Meine Crew stieß auf ein IED (Sprengfalle) und ging in die Geschichte als die erste ein, die das? ,M'-Paket getestet hat", schrieb nun der Kanadier. "Es funktionierte so, wie es sollte." Zwar habe sich der Fahrer die Hüfte gebrochen und den anderen hätten die Ohren gehörig geklingelt, doch wäre man in einem anderen Fahrzeug weit weniger gut weggekommen, meint der Kanadier und scherzt: "Ich weiß, dass dieser Schlag wohl ein bisschen mehr Arbeit auf Ihren Schreibtisch bringen wird, denn ich glaube nicht, dass der Schaden vom Mietvertrag abgedeckt ist. Dieses Exemplar haben wir wohl gekauft." 2009 sind die Panzer "wie übergeben" an Deutschland zurückzugeben. Es muss sich aber nicht um dieselben Panzer handeln. Es gehört nicht viel Phantasie dazu, sich diese oder entsprechende Exemplare auch bald mit dem eisernen Kreuz im Auslandseinsatz vorzustellen. (löw.)


Text: F.A.Z., 19.11.2007, Nr. 269 / Seite 8
---------------
You can also find the article for free at http://www.sondereinheiten.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14684&start=60 (a forum for German military personal).

For the not-German-speaking: The translation on MP is basically a correct summary of the email. The officer also says that the vehicle saved his life and that of his crew and he gives his thanks for that.

Personally, I think the CF really opposes the taliban thread in Afghanistan and the German Bundeswehr sits in its camps in Kunduz and Masar-I-sharif and is not allowed go out and therefore does nothing, with the exeption of giving those 20 tanks to Canada: So maybe at least you can use our equipment. :'(


Kind Regards,
a German Vistor of your site
(from Hamburg, Germany)

 

[dapaterson]

And if you wonder how Google would translate that text,

Canadians thanked for the German Leopard tanks

Sometimes it is friendly, if not cordial Post, the Defense Ministry by the allies in Afghanistan-use. How about an e-mail with the subject "Thanks" recently received. She came from a Canadian officer who, as he wrote, for the new tanks would want, namely his life recently at night and his team had rescued. It is a sentence Leopard-2-Kampfpanzer that the Bundeswehr to the Canadians for the use of Afghanistan - has-as it were on loan. These were the 20 "Leos" for the use of converted requirements, including through additional mine protection, which is why the model designation 2A6 with an "M" added. "My crew met with an IED (Explosive Trap), and went down in history as the first one, which?, M'-Paket tested," wrote to the Canadians. "It functioned as it should." Although the driver is the hip broken and the other had the ears belonging jingled, but it would be in another vehicle far less well weggekommen, said the Canadians and jokes: "I know that this probably beat a little more work on your desk that will bring, because I do not believe that the damage is covered by the lease. copy of this, we have probably bought. " 2009, the tanks "like hand over" to be returned to Germany. It must not act in the same tanks. There is not much imagination, or is this appropriate specimens soon with the Iron Cross abroad to be used. (Löw.)

 

[German Visitor]

And if you wonder how Google would translate that text,

Not bad for a translating machine. As a human I corrected the automatic translation a bit (see below).
----------------
Involuntary Mine-Test
Canadian thanks for German Leopard tanks

Sometimes it is friendly, if not cordial Mail, that the Defense Ministry gets by the allies in the Afghanistan-mission. E.g. an e-mail with the subject "Thanks" recently received. It came from a Canadian officer who, as he wrote, wants to thank for the new tank, that recently at night had rescued his life and his team, he supposed. It is a set of Leopard-2-battle-tanks that the Bundeswehr has given to the Canadians for the use of Afghanistan - on loan, so to speak. For this matter the 20 "Leos" had been converted for the mission-requirements, including additional mine protection, which is why the model designation 2A6 has an "M" added. "My crew met with an IED (Explosive Trap), and went down in history as the first one, who tested the 'M'-package," now wrote the Canadian. "It worked as it should." Although the drivers hip is broken and the others had a buzzing in the ears, in another vehicle they would be far less well done, said the Canadian and jokes: "I know that this probably brings a little more work on your desk, as I do not believe that the damage is covered by the leasing-contract. This piece we have probably bought." 2009, the tanks have to be returned to Germany "like handed over". It may also be other (but similar) tanks. It takes is not much imagination, to see those ore similar tanks soon with the Iron Cross in foreign missions. (löw.)


Text: F.A.Z., 19.11.2007, Nr. 269 / Seite 8
--------------
Unfortunately, the original humor is "lost in translation".


PS
Maybe we should also "loan" you for free 8) also the Marder 1A5 tracked IFVs (commander, gunner, driver + 6 troops, 20 mm cannon) with comparable additional mine protection to the Leo. The Marders never left the German Kundz-base, as we don't have the nuts to use them ourselfs :-[. Greece gets 500 Marder IFVs and does not need or use them, neither.

 

[vonGarvin]

Here's my stab at the translation (with an attempt to retain the humour)

There are times when friendly, almost cordial letters are received by the German Ministry of defence from allies in the Afghanistan mission.  Such was the case in an email they recently received.  It simply had the subject line “Thanks”.  It came from a Canadian officer who wanted to thank the ministry for his new tank.  It recently saved his life, and the lives of his crew.  The tank in question was the Leopard 2, which the Bundeswehr recently delivered to the Canadians for their deployment in Afghanistan.  The 20 Leopards were specially outfitted for the mission, including added mine protection, hence the designation 2A6M. 
“My crew hit an IED and as such went down in history as the first to test the “M” variant’” wrote the Canadian.  “It worked exactly as it was supposed to.”  The driver broke his hip and the rest of the crew’s ears were ringing.  However, if the crew were in another vehicle, the result would have been much worse, suggested the officer as he joked, “I realise that this attack will certainly cause a bit more paperwork, because I don’t think that this damage is covered in the rental agreement.  I think we just bought this tank.”  The tanks are to be returned to Germany in 2009 “as rented”.  They do not, however, have to be the same tanks.  It doesn’t take much to imagine to soon see these or other tanks with the iron cross in foreign duty.

 

[German Visitor]

Maybe you want to see the 2A6M CAN Leos in Kandahar and hear what the tankers say. The ZDF report (Title: "Battlefield instead of road works: The lonely fight of the Canadians in Kandahar.") about the Canadian forces in Afghanistan is in German, but has Leo-2 footage and english-speaking interviews with the tankers about their experience with the new tank (from 0:50 to 3:20 within the 5:47 clip).
At youtube :
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8bpteWCajEo&feature=related
Original (for me a bit cumbersome to view):
http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek/content/359838?inPopup=true

 

[Timmy!]

PS
Maybe we should also "loan" you for free 8) also the Marder 1A5 tracked IFVs (commander, gunner, driver + 6 troops, 20 mm cannon) with comparable additional mine protection to the Leo. The Marders never left the German Kundz-base, as we don't have the nuts to use them ourselfs :-[. Greece gets 500 Marder IFVs and does not need or use them, neither.

I'm starting to like you. Next time I'm in Germany, I"ll look you up. 

 

[German Visitor]

I'm starting to like you. Next time I'm in Germany, I"ll look you up. 

After Schultz enters Barracks 2 and see the prisoners trying to pull apart up a wall:
    * Hogan: How else would we get the tank in?
    * Schultz: Tank? Tank? Tank? Tank? Tank? Tank?

 

[ironduke57]

... Greece gets 500 Marder IFVs and does not need or use them, neither.

Sorry, but this is wrong. The Marders have already been offered to Greece twice, either by Rheinmetall or directly by the German state. The initial proposal by Rheinmetall was to fit the Marders with the new E4 turret before selling them to Greece; that was regarded as too expensive. Then there was an initial deal between Greece and Germany (I think Rheinmetall wasn't involved) to buy 415 Marders (1A3) for 250 million Euros without major modifications except radios etc. That deal was almost
completed, but the Greek MoD changed its mind at the last moment, opting for a tender for new generation AIFVs. ATM there is a third offer to the Greece directly by Rheinmetall to lease 164 Marder 1A3. (http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=3171231&C=landwar)

Regards,
ironduke57
(One more German on here. Today this forum and tomorrow the world! Eh wait. I didn´t mean that as it sounded. /me Note to myself: Don´t speak about world domination in the open.  ;D )

 

[geo]

LOL Duke, LOL

Not a problem