Canada's purchase of the Leopard 2 MBT

[Kat Stevens]

(One more German on here. Today this forum and tomorrow the world! Eh wait. I didn´t mean that as it sounded. /me Note to myself: Don´t speak about world domination in the open.  ;D )

That is quite possibly one of the funniest things I've ever read on here, good one duke!

 

[ironduke57]

Regarding the Leo2A6 which hit the IED:

OTTAWA - A Canadian officer in Afghanistan sent a personal thank you to the German government after he and his crew rumbling along in a tank borrowed from the NATO ally survived a powerful Taliban roadside bomb blast.

"My crew stumbled upon an (improvised explosive device) and made history as the first (crew) to test the (Leopard 2A6)M-packet," said the unidentified officer in an email to German defence officials about the specially-designed battle tank.

"It worked as it should."

The crew of four was battered by the blast and the driver broke a hip, but otherwise they were fine. The note, passed to Berlin through a Canadian defence attache, has been quoted in the German media, but Canada's Defence Department was loath to acknowledge its existence.

Interview requests with both army and defence officials in Ottawa were denied and in what has become a troubling pattern for the department, it released only a series of written answers to questions about the incident posed by The Canadian Press.

The 13-line note failed to explain the unprecedented secrecy surrounding the incident.

A defence analyst said Canadian officials' silence mystifies him when they have an opportunity to trumpet such a success, particularly since the tanks' formidable presence has helped contribute to a decline in civilian casualties in their areas of operation.

"The Leopards are an extremely accurate direct fire weapon, far more accurate than air strikes," said Alain Pellerin, a retired colonel, and executive director of the Ottawa-based Conference of Defence Associations. "Civilian casualties is a major issue for both Canadians and Afghans and the tanks are proving their worth."

In deploying the army's older Leopard C1 tanks in the fall of 2006, former defence minister Gordon O'Connor faced accusations in the House of Commons that the Conservatives were escalating the war. The Conservatives' insisted that tanks, sometimes by their very presence, save lives.

The unidentified tank officer, part of a contingent of 2,500 Canadian soldiers serving in the volatile Kandahar region, told the Germans there likely would have been casualties among the crew had they been in any other type of vehicle.

The majority of the 73 soldiers killed in Afghanistan have died because their vehicles have run over improvised explosives, including seven casualties in the current rotation.

Despite three days of repeated requests, the Canadian military refused to shed much light on the incident. It acknowledged the tank was damaged during the recent battle of Arghandaub, which took place in early November, north of Kandahar, and that one tanker was injured.

A stipulation of borrowing the 42-tonne iron monsters from the Germans was that they be returned in the same condition. Although the tank was nowhere near wrecked, a German Army official who was not authorized to speak on the record, said the Canadians will likely keep vehicle and pay out its roughly C $6.4 million cost.

Canadian officials refused to say whether that is the case.

Last spring the Conservative government announced it was going to borrow 20 modern Leopard C2A6 tanks to meet immediate combat needs in Afghanistan. The existing Leopard C1s were deemed too old to withstand the rigours and oppressive heat of the Afghan desert.

The German tanks - borrowed at no cost - were upgraded with anti-mine protection and began arriving in Kandahar in mid-August along with the latest rotation of infantry from the Royal 22nd Regiment.

Over the long-term, the Conservatives plan to replace the borrowed tanks with relatively new ones purchased from the surplus stock of 100 Dutch Leopards. Pellerin said it is imperative that National Defence follow through on intention to upgrade those tanks with the latest mine-resistence armour kits.

The government was supposed to take delivery of the Dutch tanks this fall, but the department has refused to say what the status of the project might be.

Source: http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/War_Terror/2007/12/05/4709453-cp.html

Regards,
ironduke57

 

[Panzer Grenadier]

So the Government wont make this more public because they have to possibly pay 6.4 million dollars of taxpayers money, for a tank that saved the lives of its operators, and not be able to return it to the German government?

 

[geo]

Geez... so, according to the press, we were using Leo C1s in Afghanistan and are now using Leo C2s... Interesting & just goes to show you that MsM has made absolutely no effort to consult someone with a smidgen of knowledge as to what we do or do not have / use in theatre.

WRT the Leo 2A6M that was "bent" in the very big IED incident, I think we all knew that we'd have to pay the sticker price on the vehicle.... unless the German Gov't is willing to take a slightly used Dutch Leo 2A4 for which we'd pay for upgrades ... that would bring it up to 2A6M standard.

 

[German Visitor]

our monster is heavier: the a6 already has 62 tons (without m-package and w/o slat armor)

 

[McG]

So the Government wont make this more public because they have to possibly pay 6.4 million dollars of taxpayers money, for a tank that saved the lives of its operators, and not be able to return it to the German government?

... or the government recognizes that publicizing the strengths & weaknesses of battle damaged vehicles is a stupid way to give information to the enemy and get more Canadians killed.

 

[blacktriangle]

... or the government recognizes that publicizing the strengths & weaknesses of battle damaged vehicles is a stupid way to give information to the enemy and get more Canadians killed.

Somehow when I saw your name by the post, I knew exactly what it would say.  ;D

I couldn't agree more MCG...

 

[Panzer Grenadier]

MCG I was actually referring to the financial cost portion, not the strengths and weaknesses. :-[

 

[German Visitor]

WRT the Leo 2A6M that was "bent" in the very big IED incident, I think we all knew that we'd have to pay the sticker price on the vehicle.... unless the German Gov't is willing to take a slightly used Dutch Leo 2A4 for which we'd pay for upgrades ... that would bring it up to 2A6M standard.

According to your Chief of the Defence Staff you won't have to pay the sticker price, as the tank is back in theatre.

Tank hit by IED back in service: Hillier

ALAN FREEMAN

December 8, 2007

OTTAWA -- General Rick Hillier, speaking to reporters yesterday in Ottawa, denied reports that a Leopard II tank that was struck by an IED last month was a writeoff, insisting that the tank has been repaired and is once again in use.

"It's now back operational," Gen. Hillier said.

He confirmed that the tank, one of 20 that are on loan from the German Armed Forces was struck by an IED or anti-tank mine. The army is also awaiting delivery of as many as 100 used Leopard IIs that Canada is purchasing from the Netherlands.

"The Taliban have been engaged with some of the new Leopard II tanks in several ambushes," he said, noting that he did not believe the tanks had been deliberately targeted but were hit because they were part of military convoys.

Gen. Hillier said the Leopard performed as it should - even though the IED blew up beneath the driver's seat, the tank driver suffered nothing but a small hip fracture - and that as a result the Taliban "learned some very harsh lessons" and lost the battle in question "very quickly and very violently."

"That young kid called home and said, 'Mom, I would not have been alive if it had been any other vehicle but a Leopard II,' "Gen. Hillier said.

The General said that 14 or 15 of the German Leopard IIs have so far arrived in Afghanistan, of which four have been operational since mid-August.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20071208.AFGHANSIDE08/TPStory/TPInternational/Asia/

 

[Franko]

I hope that blast that hit was a huge one. Not wishing ill harm but to show the Taliban that these machines can take a lot. That might nice and screw with their morale. 

Ummm....no. It'll just make the next one bigger, and bigger and bigger.

Remember, Coyotes,  LAVs and RG31s were doing well for a while. Timmie just made the IEDs bigger.

Regards

 

[aesop081]

Its a never ending cycle of bigger bombs and more armour.  The solution to IEDs is not to always come up with better armour,

It is to Win the war. No insurgents, no IEDs.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

Its a never ending cycle of bigger bombs and more armour.  The solution to IEDs is not to always come up with better armour,

It is to Win the war. No insurgents, no IEDs.

maybe while some of these guys are making their homemade bombs they'll make a mistake and go to meet their maker a little earlier than they planned... ;D....I know, i know..."other cheek, other cheek, other cheek....

 

[aesop081]

....I know, i know..."other cheek, other cheek, other cheek....

"Praise the lord and pass the ammunition"


Note : I was originaly going to ask "Why ? Is the other cheek better armoured ?"

 

[Rayman]

Ummm....no. It'll just make the next one bigger, and bigger and bigger.

Remember, Coyotes,  LAVs and RG31s were doing well for a while. Timmie just made the IEDs bigger.

Regards

You're right. Like Aviator said best way to cure the problem is to take care of them. I will say hopefully these machines can stand up to whatever Timmie will throw at them for a while.... or run out of supplies to make these IED's.

 

[Franko]

I will say hopefully these machines can stand up to whatever Timmie will throw at them for a while.... or run out of supplies to make these IED's.

The Soviets left them enough materials to keep them in business for years.     

Regards

 

[McG]

okay, the stupid stuff is gone: http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/68744.0/all.html

Let's keep this on track.

 

[German Visitor]

I think I found the text of the original thank-you-mail about the mine-protected leopard tank - without the multiple translations english-german-english:

“Sir,

I'd like to pass on a little note of thanks from my crew and myself for all your work in helping procure the new tanks and to let you know that it saved our lives the other night. My crew hit the IED the night of 2 Nov and went down in the history books as the first crew to test out the ‘M’ package of the 2 A6 M. It worked how it was supposed to.

Unfortunately we didn't all walk away unharmed, my driver broke his left hip, but the fact that most of us only suffered bumps and bruises and ringing ears is testament to how well the new tanks function. This was our second IED strike in six weeks and much bigger than the first and only through sheer luck we were travelling in a Leo 2. I'm certain that we wouldn't have fared as well in another vehicle.

I know this strike will probably put a bit more work on your desk since the damage is at the point were I don't think the lease will cover it and we probably bought this one, but it helped four soldiers walk away relatively unharmed. At least the German Army and KMW can take comfort in the fact that the kit works and does save lives even if I did write off a tank.

Thanks again sir and your work on that end is truly appreciated.”

http://www.defence-forum.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=106515
or
http://www.soldatentreff.de/modules.php?op=modload&name=eBoard&file=viewthread&tid=16080

 

[cameron]

As far as i'm concerned saved lives are more important than a written off tank.  Godspeed to all the tankers and other Canadian warriors over there in harm's way. :cdnsalute: :tank:

 

[Mackie]

However, the US KE rounds are fired with a much higher peak pressure in order to achieve the same kinetic energy at the muzzle.

In some years you will see how press writing about a high incidence of cancer in former battle zones.

Example from Germany:
A study says that we have a higher incidence of cancer around nuclear power plants. Radiation reports over the years were normal. No critical incident in the documents.
Scientist cannot explain this aspect.
It shows that we must be very careful in handling nuclear technologies.
In 2023 Germany shut down the last nuclear power plant.

 

[George Wallace]

???

I think you have a few things confused here.

KE is not DU.  KE is "Kinetic Energy" NOT "Depleted Uranium".