Canada-US Trade Relations

[Altair]

Article from today's Financial Post that compares subsidies between Canada and United States and shows that in many cases the US government subsidizes there there industries just as much as Canada does and in some cases (sugar!) even more so.

First of four installments about protectionism in Canada and around the world.

Rest of article can be found here.

long story short,  Americans are hypocrites

 

[Infanteer]

long story short,  Americans are hypocrites

Ok, time to dial it back.  Your rapid fire posts are fine, but don't sink to this level.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

long story short,  Americans are hypocrites all countries act in their own national interests, always.

FTFY.  Keep it real....

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

long story short,  Americans are hypocrites all countries act in their own national interest, always

FTFY.  Keep it real....

I agree, PPCLI Guy. That's why I believe your post should be further amended as follows:

long story short, Americans are hypocrites all democratic countries act in their own national the political interest of their currently elected officials and their party, always

 

[FJAG]

Thoughtful article from CNN

Are we sliding back to the chaos of the 1930s?
By Tim Lister, CNN

Updated 8:07 PM ET, Sat July 21, 2018

(CNN)US President Donald Trump swept through Europe like a hurricane. He asked why his country was obliged to defend its allies, carped about "unfair" trade practices, blasted the UK and Germany as weak on migration and suggested President Vladimir Putin was as credible as America's own intelligence agencies when it came to Russian hacking.

Trump reprised his role as a cheerleader for Brexit and complained that everyone was taking advantage of the US. Negotiating with Putin would be easier than dealing with allies, he said. It was all transactional, about price tags and deals. Values found little airtime.

At almost every step, in tweet after tweet, he sneered at the liberal international order built from the ashes of World War II, underwritten through institutions like NATO and the UN and protected under the US nuclear umbrella, an order that has given much of the world unrivaled peace and prosperity.

Former US Vice President Joe Biden said last week that Trump was (wittingly or otherwise) helping with Putin's agenda, which is above all to break the liberal international order that faced down the Soviet Union and stands for everything the Russian leader despises.

But is that order really in danger, and if so what might replace it? Some hark back to the 1930s, when the aftermath of economic crisis, protectionism, hostility to minorities, the collapse of international institutions and a sense that democracy had failed, allowed fascism to take root.

This parallel can be overdone of course: we live in an age of relatively full employment. We appear not to be on the brink of war, with fascist powers re-arming. Paramilitary groups don't stalk the streets, most nation-states are stronger than they were in the 1930s, and the concept of human rights is now entrenched in democratic societies.

But when in doubt, quote Mark Twain, who is reputed to have said that "History doesn't repeat itself but it often rhymes."

And if some echoes of the 1930s are faint today, there are many contemporary trends that are equally alarming.

. . .

Read the rest of the article here:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/21/europe/world-returns-to-1930s-intl/index.html

:cheers:

 

[Cloud Cover]

ERC: there are already significant tax concessions granted to the agricultural industry in Canada, and those concessions extend into the cannabis industry (no problem with that, btw). However, the amount of oversight and government financial scrutiny of farmers and agriculture is certainly one of the most burdensome for any non-corporate business in Canada. Farmers in Saskatchewan have long complained they are far more scrutinized than the oil industry, which is rife with flow-through shares and all sorts of complicated tax reduction schemes for investors that the CRA can barely understand themselves....much easier to pick on some poor bastard with a herd of cattle or a couple hundred acres of crop.

On the issue of loan financing, with FCC there is significant loan and operating cash flow assistance to keep farmers afloat if they choose to accept and abide by the rules, which are very time consuming and quite onerous. There is even special financing programs for young farmers under 40. The interest lates are low (near prime), and I'm not convinced tax deductibility of those loans is going to improve anything. Simplifying the tax rules, allowing faster amortization of capex and broadening the range of items for opex and labour costs is definitely something that needs to be looked at.

The taxation issue is quite a complicated burden right now.  So onerous in fact, that there is a thriving cottage industry of tax specialists just for farmers and agriculture.  I know farmers that have full time jobs off the farm just to make ends meet and in some cases just to pay their taxes, so it is not all gravy in fact I'm quite certain it is difficult at times.

I'll go back to what I said before: food security is national security*. There should be no compromise there, but we have done that. Is supply management the way to do it>> probably not but we have done that.  Is taxation the way to achieve it? Maybe, and we are doing it with room to improve.

But one thing is for certain, being steam rolled over food in a trade agreement is not the answer. We do not need food from any other country on earth with the exception of maybe sugar and some citrus, it's just stupid that we have allowed this to happen.

Most importantly, what we really need to do is encourage more people to GTF out of the cities, back into the rural areas, pick up a shovel and dig a fence post hole, drive a tractor, pray for rain, thank the sun and feel the need for a little more Murray McLauchlan and less Lady GaGa. Locally produced is the in thing, its time to capitalize on that and put some of the "culture" back into agriculture.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

To me, it's just inherently wrong to say to someone, "Here's how much you can grow, you'll sell it all to us and here's what we're going to pay you. And you're not allowed to sell it to anyone but us."

 

[Cloud Cover]

True. There are very few instances where a monopsony is viable beyond a temporary emergency measure to address a shortage of a domestically produced product.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

To me, it's just inherently wrong to say to someone, "Here's how much you can grow, you'll sell it all to us and here's what we're going to pay you. And you're not allowed to sell it to anyone but us."

Monopolies are the name of the game when you get to a certain size. You also be surprised at the restrictions placed on retailers, distributors by manufacturers, telling who to, where, how many, marketing and country the distributors can sell to.   

 

[FJAG]

To me, it's just inherently wrong to say to someone, "Here's how much you can grow, you'll sell it all to us and here's what we're going to pay you. And you're not allowed to sell it to anyone but us."

This is why I was happy to see the back side of the Wheat Board.

:cheers:

 

[a_majoor]

Not everyone sees the "Trade Wars" as a bad thing, and Kevin O'Leary points out that the Market apparently believes that there will be a positive outcome, based on the market reaction since the G7 summit and the assumption of tariffs. The potential upside to the President's desire for "no tariffs and no subsidies" is far more alluring than the immediate impact of tariffs.

https://www.westernjournal.com/ct/shark-tank-star-ignore-medias-trump-hysteria-look-at-remarkable-things-hes-actually-done/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=thenewvoice&utm_campaign=can&utm_content=2018-07-25

‘Shark Tank’ Star: Ignore Media’s Trump Hysteria, Look at ‘Remarkable’ Things He’s Actually Done

By Scott Kelnhofer
July 24, 2018 at 2:53pm

the money quote:

“So why has the market not corrected, and why have many stocks continued to hit all-time historic highs?” he asked. “Because the potential to equalize tariffs has such tremendous economic upside for the U.S. economy, investors are willing to put up with pain even if the chance of success is only 50 percent or less.”

And the markets are willing to put up with a lot of pain if the payoff is worth it, O’Leary said.

“The markets know this is not going to happen overnight, but the upside is so enticing that it is willing to wait,” he said.

While the market may not always be right, it is the collective result of literally billions of individual calculations, decisions and intuitions. IF President Trump can use tariffs to bring people to the table and pushed form their initial positions, then new and possibly highly beneficial arrangements and systems can come into being.

Closer to home, we need to realize that President Trump's interests are focused on America's major trade partners, like the EU, China and Japan. If our negotiating position is too far out of line (and trying to use trade deals to promote "progressive" positions and GBA+ certainly would seem to be very much out of the mainstream), then we will simply be crushed under the wheels. So the positive response to this is to put aside the "Trump's a big meanie" line and truly look at where the interests of the United States and Canada are aligned, and strengthen that linkage, even while looking to diversify with CETA and TPP (which, incidentally the current Government does not seem to be pursuing with any great energy even given the escalating tariffs and trade barriers being erected by the United States).

 

[QV]

Got pretty quiet in here since Trump met with the EU about trade and the announcement of the US second quarter GDP.  LOL

 

[Remius]

Got pretty quiet in here since Trump met with the EU about trade and the announcement of the US second quarter GDP.  LOL

Probably because neither is actually about the trade war between Canada and the US?  :dunno:

 

[QV]

Do you not believe those two events have any influence on the Canada/US trade war?  Tell me, is the US in a stronger or a weaker position after those two announcements?

 

[Remius]

You said it got quiet in here since those things were announced.  I offered a reason.  If I were to comment on it it would be in another thread not this one. Unless I wanted to make a direct link.

Or maybe most people don’t see either has having a huge impact yet at all on the current trade war.

 

[QV]

https://business.financialpost.com/opinion/lawrence-solomon-trump-just-unveiled-the-new-trade-world-order-canada-not-included

This article is about right IMO.

Trudeau and company are no match for Trump and his administration...sadly we will all pay for it. 

 

[Rifleman62]

As I have posted several times, Trudeau blotted his copybook at the G7, and Trump is peeved. Captain Canada won't be able to save Canada from the evil Trump as an election platform. It's about politics and the LPC. Canada is secondary.

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/canada-rejected-in-bid-to-be-part-of-high-level-nafta-talks-between-mexico-and-u-s-sources?video_autoplay=true

Canada rejected in bid to be part of high-level NAFTA talks between Mexico and U.S.: sources - 30 Jul 18
A source said the U.S. side, fuelled in part by Lighthizer’s dislike of Freeland, has decided to not even let Canada back into the process until it makes a substantive concession

Extract: 1. WASHINGTON, D.C. — American officials have taken the “highly unusual” step of rejecting Canada’s bid to take part in senior-level NAFTA talks between the U.S. and Mexico later this week, sources familiar with the trade negotiations said Monday. One person said attempts by Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland to get a seat at the table in Washington Thursday were either ignored, or spurned outright by the office of U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer. Another source said the request to be at the meeting was made in a low-key fashion “so as not to spark a diplomatic incident” and was followed by “a retreat to diplomatic silence.”

            2. Indeed, recent developments point to a steady souring of relations between Ottawa and the White House. Formal, three-way talks to revamp the North American Free Trade Agreement have not been held since May, though had been expected to restart after the Mexican presidential election earlier this month.

            3. “Until Canada signals to the White House or tells them even privately ‘We’re going to give you something that you want,’ they’re going to be on the outside looking in,” said the person, citing private discussions with administration officials.

            4. The source who cited the American expectation that Canada offer some kind of significant offer to get talks going again, said the situation is not helped by Lighthizer’s apparent enmity for Freeland. That ironically stems from the much-touted Canadian charm offensive, which saw various politicians meet with members of Congress, who have in turn frequently criticized Trump’s approach to trade. “In his mind, she went around his back (as Trudeau did at the G7) all over Capitol Hill,” said the person. “Their whole charm offensive, which I think was a good idea, Lighthizer views as an end-run.”

Possibly Canada will give up:

- A new chapter on gender rights;
- A new chapter on Indigenous rights;
- A new chapter on labour standards; or horrors
- Protection of Canada's supply-management system for dairy and poultry.

 

[Altair]

Possibly Canada will give up:

- A new chapter on gender rights;

please prove where any Americans have said this is a hangup,  for there is no evidence of it

- A new chapter on Indigenous rights;

please prove where any Americans have said this is a hangup,  for there is no evidence of it

- A new chapter on labour standards; or horrors

please prove where any Americans have said this is a hangup,  for there is no evidence of it

- Protection of Canada's supply-management system for dairy and poultry.

Please show where Andrew Scheer will not fight tooth and nail to protect dairy farmers over this issue.

 

[Rifleman62]

Altair:

please prove where any Americans have said this is a hangup,  for there is no evidence of it

You and I don't know because we aren't in the meetings.

Altair:

Please show where Andrew Scheer will not fight tooth and nail to protect dairy farmers over this issue.

Unfortunately, the (powerful? Don't know why) Cdn dairy cartel is forcing Cdn families to pay exorbitant prices, compared to the US consumer, for their products. This cartel is holding Canada hostage in the NAFTA negotiations because, shit I don't know why.  It is Canada's position to protect the cartel come hell or high water.

Thus, no deal with the US cause I suspect Trump wants it gone.

 

[Altair]

Altair:
You and I don't know because we aren't in the meetings.

Altair:
Unfortunately, the (powerful? Don't know why) Cdn dairy cartel is forcing Cdn families to pay exorbitant prices, compared to the US consumer, for their products. This cartel is holding Canada hostage in the NAFTA negotiations because, crap I don't know why.  It is Canada's position to protect the cartel come hell or high water.

Thus, no deal with the US cause I suspect Trump wants it gone.

of course we don't know.

But people are still saying that Canada is asking for

A new chapter on gender rights;
A new chapter on Indigenous rights;
A new chapter on labour standards

Despite having no evidence that canada is asking for any of those things.

The only thing being leaked to the press(on both sides of the border)  is the 5 year sunset clause and the supply management program.

The latter of which is a big partisan (really tri partisan issue since the NDP isn't giving it up either) in which the two main parties are fighting about who defends the dairy cartel the most,  so to say that its the liberals screwing Canada on that is a tad bit disingenuous.

Remember,  its the CPC who went after the LPC for being "flexible" on the issue.