Canada finds possible US Air Force plane lost in 1942

[SARgirl]

Canada finds possible US Air Force plane lost in 1942
Thu Aug 6, 7:11 PM

Link:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/090806/canada/canada_us_history_wwii_archeology_airplane_crash_1

News Story:

OTTAWA (AFP) - Canadian underwater archeologists accidentally discovered what they believe to be the wreck of a US Air Force airplane that sank in the Saint Lawrence seaway in 1942, the Parks Canada divers said Thursday.

The divers said in a statement that they were carrying out routine work in an adjacent area when they came across the wreck. It must still be confirmed that it is indeed the lost plane.

"This is a very significant discovery," Quebec region Minister Christian Paradis said. "This plane is a testament to the collaboration between Canada and the US during the Second World War."

The amphibious aircraft foundered in rough weather on November 2, 1942, in the waters surrounding what is now the Mingan Archipelago National Park Reserve in the eastern Gulf of Saint Lawrence.

The plane was based at Presqu'Ile, Maine, in the United States, and serviced an airfield in the village of Longue-Pointe-de-Mingan, Quebec, about 1,000 kilometers (641 miles) northeast of Montreal.

Nine persons were on board when the aircraft went down. Four of the crew escaped the flooding plane and were rescued by local fishermen rowing out from shore in open boats in rough seas.

The five others perished, trapped inside.

Officials said sonar scans indicate the plane appears to be in good condition and divers hope to recover any remains of the five victims in the coming weeks.

"The United States government was extremely interested to learn of the discovery of the wreckage," said David Fetter, Consul General of the United States.

In 1941 and 1942, the United States constructed a series of airfields in Eastern Canada to ferry aircraft to Allied air forces in Northern Europe, as part of the so-called "Crimson Route."

The construction of the airport in Longue-Pointe-de-Mingan was to serve as an emergency airfield along the ferry route between Presque Isle and Goose Bay, Labrador.

 

[mariomike]

One of those who perished was a famous aviator. The Star published a front page story by Gordon Sinclair and a photo of Col. Zimmerman on Saturday, November 7, 1942. His family lived in Mimico. He had more than 2 million miles as a pilot. He flew the Atlantic 116 times. He held the U.S. coast to coast speed record flying a Boeing Stratoliner. He was chosen to fly the first airliner into LaGuardia Airport. He flew the first tri-motor airplane ever built. He flew the first Douglas, and was one of the first to fly U.S. Air Mail.
He was reportedly awarded the Legion of Merit a month after the crash.
Quote from the book:
"Under the cover of darkness, TWA mystery “Flight No. 7” winged its way north from New Orleans. On board was FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover; a “small army of heavily armed G-men; and Alvin Karpis, America’s “ Public Enemy No. 1.” With submachine guns at the ready, the G-men were transporting Karpis to St. Paul, Minnesota to stand trial on kidnapping charges. On that spring night in 1936, TWA’s chief pilot Jack Zimmerman was at the controls of the 14-passenger Douglas. It was the first of many secret charters Zimmerman would fly for the FBI." 

 

[mariomike]

Too late to edit this in to my post:
11-2-42. LAKE ERIE, ONTARIO, CANADA. At 1650, a Consolidated OA-10 (43-3266) attempting a take-off crashed into Lake Erie at Long Point, Mingan, Ontario, Canada, killing five crewmembers. Two crewmembers were injured and two crewmembers escaped injury. The airplane took off from Presque Isle, Maine, on a personnel transport mission to Long Point, Ontario, and return. Investigators stated, "Upon completion of the mission, the plane taxied out from the shore and after warming up the engines started on a normal take-off. During this first attempted take-off, the plane was seen to break clear but each time did not have sufficient speed to fly and settled back on the waves that were running from four to six feet. It is assumed from witnesses accounts that the first attempted take-off resulted in the nose wheel door being sprung as well as the glass that leads from this nose wheel well to the compartment. On the second attempt to take-off, the plane was unable to clear the water and it is believed from witnesses accounts that the entire nose wheel section and part of the hull were caved in by the impact with the waves. When this fact was noticed by the crew, the throttles were cut, which resulted in the plane sinking quite rapidly until the wing and tail remained out of the water." Killed in the crash were: Lt.Col. Harry J. Zimmerman, pilot; Sgt. Charles O. Richardson, engineer; Pvt. Erwin G. Austin, asst. engineer; Pvt. Peter P. Couzine, asst. radio operator; Capt. Carney Lee Dowlen, passenger. Passengers Capt. J.B. Holmberg and radio operator Pvt. James E. Click received minor injuries. Co-pilot SSgt. Bernard R. Peterson and gunner Cpl. Robert L. Ashley escaped injury.
http://www.warbirdcrash.com/
Note the discrepancy as to location!
Long Point, Ontario seems to have been confused with Longue-Pointe-de-Mingan in Quebec.
The attached photo is 43-3260. It should be identical to 43-3266.
http://www.pbyrescue.com/Photos/2ERS0000/oa-10/43-3260.htm
Incidentally, I ran the names of the missing: http://www.abmc.gov/search/wwii.php
They should be in the data base, but are not. I sent an e-mail to ABMC. I wonder how many other names are unrecorded by ABMC?
http://img16.imageshack.us/i/zimmerman.pdf/

 

[SARgirl]

mariomike,

Very interesting information in both your posts, thank you and the book looks like it would be a great read.  It's one of those books for me to keep in mind if I can keep my nose out of training manuals long enough to read anything else besides that which I'm studying (always seem to be studying something).

Again, thank you for the information, enjoyed reading the details. 

 

[FishOuttaWater]

Yes, great additional info to the original story MarioMike.  :nod:

One thing that actually prompted me to stop lurking and post was the fact that the U.S. never came back to recover their servicemens' bodies. 

It's not like they were in "hostile waters" off the coast of Somalia or something.

 

[mariomike]

One thing that actually prompted me to stop lurking and post was the fact that the U.S. never came back to recover their servicemens' bodies. 

Thanks Egy and F.O.W.
The thing is.........I have a hunch that the five who died may have been recovered from the water at the time of the accident.
I say that for two reasons:
1 ) Gordon Sinclair of the Star visited Col. Zimmerman's parents in their Mimico ( Toronto ) home on Heman  St. a few days after the accident. The parents had already been spoken to by the U.S. War Department. Listen to what Mr. Sinclair wrote. ( I am very familiar with his voice from the radio ): "In this war, it is an order that the bodies of servicemen dying outside the US in no case must be taken home, so Col. Jack Zimmerman was buried in Canada."
After the war, American bodies were repatriated back to the US., if the Next of Kin desired. This may be what happened because....
2 ) The AMBC has no record of the five "lost" servicemen. If they were missing, their names would be recorded and inscribed on a memorial:
http://www.abmc.gov/memorials/memorials/ec.php
Those repatriated to their families are not recorded.
This means one of two things. Either the ABMC forgot to record the names of their missing, or as Gordon Sinclair reported at the time, they were ( temporarily ) buried in Canada. Then repatriated  to their families after the war. In which case, the ABMC would not keep a record, as his body was no longer under their care, once it had been signed over to the family.
Either way, it will be awkward for the US government to have to explain why the names of their missing men were never carved into the AMBC memorial. OR, if they send US Navy divers on a recovery mission expecting to find human remains, if the bodies were repatriated back to their home towns six decades ago.

P.S. This is the reply I received from ABMC: "If not found in our database indicates that the individual's
remains were returned to the US for permanent interment."

 

[FishOuttaWater]

Again, intriguing info. Sounds very reasonable & logical...

 

[mariomike]

This is a summary of the accident report. It confirms that the five previously listed U.S. servicemen did in fact go missing with their aircraft:
http://www.pc.gc.ca/apps/cp-nr/release_e.asp?bgid=1174&andor1=bg
Which brings us back to The American Battle Monuments Commission ABMC:
http://www.abmc.gov/search/wwii.php
Mrs. Nan Card is the curator of the Lt. Col. Harry J. "Jack" Zimmerman ( pilot of the missing aircraft ) collection at the Rutherford B. Hayes Presidential Centre in Fremont, Ohio. She informed me that as far as she is concerned, "Colonel Aviation", as he was known, is still missing.
This looks very bad on the ABMC saying they have no record of him or the four other missing airmen. It has certainly undermined my confidence in them. Especially when the U.S. Consulate has announced interest in recovering the a/c in conjunction with the Canadian government.
I watched this documentary about the AMBC recently on PBS:
http://www.pbs.org/hallowedgrounds/
"Thousands more are missing. But, none have been forgotten." Hopefully, the CWGC is keeping a better record of our missing.

 

[SARgirl]

mariomike,

You have been posting some excellent information. 

The link which lead to the, "Historical Overview", was a super read, very interesting. 

"Hallowed Grounds", looks like a program which would be of interest to me however, I just have rabbit ears (my choice; I don't watch enough television to warrant the expense of cable on a regular bases and so I would prefer the funds to go else where).  This means I do not get PBS, but if I did, I would be interested in watching said program.

Q's: How is it that they found the AC but, not any remains?  Why do they not want to do a thorough investigation of the area to search for the missing remains?

Thank you for posting updates, much appreicated.

 

[mariomike]

How is it that they found the AC but, not any remains?  Why do they not want to do a thorough investigation of the area to search for the missing remains?

Thanks for reading, Egy!
Divers, performing other work, by chance came across an aircraft believed to be 43-3266. A joint Canada-US recovery effort is being discussed.
It is the ABMC who is reluctant to admit they have no record of their five missing airmen. Their names should have been on the East Coast Memorial:
http://www.abmc.gov/memorials/memorials/ec.php
It is going to be very embarrassing for the U.S. military when the remains of the five missing airmen are finally recovered, and the ABMC is forced to admit they didn't even know they were missing!
Biographical Sketch:
"TWA pioneer and "Million Miler" H. J. "Jack" Zimmerman was born in Fremont, Ohio, on June 6, 1906, to local cutlery owner Harry L. Zimmerman and his wife. After attending Fremont schools, Culver Military Academy and Dartmouth College, Zimmerman entered U.S. Army Air Corps training in 1928. The following year, he piloted a Ford Tri-Motor in the first transcontinental air-rail service instituted by Transcontinental Air Transport (TAT), the predecessor of Transcontinental &Western Air, Inc. He logged more than 2 million miles and 15,000 flying hours during his career, mostly with TWA, before he was killed in a plane crash while serving as an Army Air Corps lieutenant colonel during World War II. Dubbed "Aviation's Gift to Women" as a young pilot, Zimmerman accomplished many feats during his career, including surviving a serious mail-plane crash at Allegheny County Airport at Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, in 1933 and flying the first scheduled plane into New York's LaGuardia Field in December 1939. He also piloted the plane that took J. Edgar Hoover and FBI agents to arrest kidnapper Alvin Karpis (a "Public Enemy No. 1") in 1936. In 1940, Zimmerman flew the last leg of the West-East inaugural record flight of the Stratoliner. He set a coast-to-coast speed record for transport planes and was chief pilot for TWA's Eastern and Atlantic division when he entered the service in April 1942. In the same year, the book Million Miler was written about his career. On Nov. 2, 1942, Zimmerman and a crew of eight men were involved in an airplane accident near Presque Isle, Maine, after the flying boat capsized in rough waters upon takeoff. The crew had completed the first leg of its flight and was making its return to base when the accident occurred. Zimmerman, control officer of the North Atlantic Division of the Ferry Command, was the highest ranking officer aboard. Another officer and three enlisted men were also reported missing following the wreck. Fremont was the site of a military tribute shortly after he was killed. He was survived by his parents, sister Mrs. L. K. Carroll of Fremont and his wife, the former Mary Jane Porter, to whom he was married in 1931."
http://www.lifestyles2000.net/article_207.shtml

 

[SARgirl]

Dubbed "Aviation's Gift to Women" as a young pilot

  :  Hoi!

He also piloted the plane that took J. Edgar Hoover and FBI agents to arrest kidnapper Alvin Karpis (a "Public Enemy No. 1") in 1936.

He set a coast-to-coast speed record for transport planes and was chief pilot for TWA's Eastern and Atlantic division when he entered the service in April 1942. In the same year, the book Million Miler was written about his career. 

What an interesting career.

He logged more than 2 million miles and 15,000 flying hours during his career 

  8)

The crew had completed the first leg of its flight and was making its return to base when the accident occurred.

A tragic accident, but when it's your time, it's your time.

A joint Canada-US recovery effort is being discussed.

I certainly hope they decide to recovery the AC; that would make for an interesting documentary and hopefully, along the way, a recovery operation will enable answers to the many unanswered questions to be found.

It is the ABMC who is reluctant to admit they have no record of their five missing airmen. Their names should have been on the East Coast Memorial:
http://www.abmc.gov/memorials/memorials/ec.php

I'm feeling rather slow today, maybe I'm just not seeing it, but... why are they reluctant to "admit they have no record of their five missing airmen"?

 

[mariomike]

why are they reluctant to "admit they have no record of their five missing airmen"?

Because they are going to look rather incompetent and uncaring if/when U.S. Navy divers recover five sets of remains, and their names were never on a memorial to the missing. That is not supposed to happen.
The ABMC rather terse e-mail: "If not found in our database indicates that the individual's
remains were returned to the US for permanent interment."

 

[SARgirl]

Hello mariomike,

Thank you for the quick reply.

Not recovering the remains and AC would only make them look even more, "incompetent and uncaring", which would worsen their position.  Not stepping up to right a wrong only furthers their incompetence.  :2c:

Hopefully, they will, sooner than later, do what they can to rectify the situation; recovering the remains of the plane and air crew, as well as putting their names on the memorial, would be a good start.

 

[Old Sweat]

The recovery and identification of remains is a separate function to that performed by the equivalent of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission. As for the latter, it may just be that we are seeing a function of gigo. The contemporary reports cited are wildly inaccurate and at variance with one another. Let's wait and see what happens if and when any remains are recovered.

Human beings, after all, make human errors. One of my great uncles was reported killed in the First World War, the family had a memorial service and then, lo and behold, a telegram arrived saying he was alive. When I was researching my Boer War book, I took a look at the casualty reporting file. One case stands out. (The names are made up, but the other details are as I recall them.) A soldier names J.O. Reilly was killed and a casualty report was telegraphed from the theatre base in South Africa to the War Office in London, then across to the Colonial Office. From there it was sent on the transatlantic cable to the Governor General in Ottawa, whose staff forwarded it to the Department of Militia and Defence. And the appropriate staff sent a casualty telegram to the next of kin. Unfortunately, somewhere along the chain, J.O. Reilly became J. O'Reilly, and as luck would have it there was one of each serving in South Africa. The wrong family thought their son and brother had died and it took some time to sort it out.

Let me play devil's advocate. Unless I missed something, which is quite possible, the wreckage has yet to be confirmed as the missing aircraft. That is a major part of the equation, as is the location and recovery of remains, or at least artifacts which would suggest certain individuals may have perished in the aircraft. This sort of thing takes time, so we may not see the puzzle solved for several years.

 

[SARgirl]

Old Sweat,

You made a wise post with food for thought; your post contributed a valuable and enlightening perspective.  Thank you.

This word:

"gigo"

  ... I have never seen this word before (blush); I looked it up on the online dictionary.  http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gigo .  I'm always happy to learn; thank you for the new word (thank goodness for sound clips, blush). 

 

[mariomike]

Thanks for your post, Old Sweat. I read this book on the subject:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Safely-Rest/David-P-Colley/e/9780425205143
As you know, the CWGC operates differently. 

 

[mariomike]

Unless I missed something, which is quite possible, the wreckage has yet to be confirmed as the missing aircraft.

Hello, Old Sweat. I have lots of new info from the U.S. on this missing a/c and crew. But for now:
"Confirmation that the Airplane Found by Parks Canada in St. Lawrence is American World War II Plane":
http://www.pc.gc.ca/culture/proj/dpc-pcd/index_e.asp

 

[Old Sweat]

Good. A positive development.