BMQ / BMOQ - Personal Electronics during course [MERGED]

[aesop081]

And I am certain there were some Sergeants-Major in the 1950s proclaiming the impending Armegeddon when they saw those damn kids of the 1950s showing up with their rock and roll music.  How did we ever survive?

I see you have missed the point as much as George. Can't say I'm surprised.

The point is that rather than properly conditioning our soldiers to the realities of military life right at the beginning of their careers (remember that recruits were indeed packing up and going home over this), we have shifted this requirement later down the chain, to units and organization that have much more important to do.

Sure we can try and teach them when it was and was not appropriate to use such devices but it was obviously not successful. Instead of asking if there was something wrong with the people we were bringing in, we decided that what we were doing was wrong and simply hold the candidates by the hand and tell them "its OK".

We "survive", and even do well, because we do the necessary conditioning later, when it is is more expensive to fail and more of a burden on the unit that has to do it.

As for "rock & roll music"..... It doesn't matter that this was cell phones and computers. It could have been the length of the training day. If recruits were VR-ing because 8 hours of training per day was too much, would cutting it to 7 be the right solution ?

 

[Michael OLeary]

I see you have missed the point as much as George. Can't say I'm surprised.

Well, perhaps we need you at the Recruit School to sort things out, as the only person who sees anything clearly.

 

[Tank Troll]

How did we ever survive the COLD WAR without the Internet and Cell phones?

Memos,  O groups, and fan out lists  ;D

 

[Tank Troll]

Wow; that's cheap. I'm used to ~2500 bucks these days (deployed of course). Were they into clearing bays?

Blank round NDs in training don't go over $195.00 because they don't want it to stay on your permanent record.($200.00 or more stays) Of course this was set back when $200.00 was a third of your pay, now most troops drop that much in a night at the club

 

[armyvern]

Memos,  O groups, and fan out lists  ;D

Reminds me of this time last week in KAF with no DWAN and the computers gone for everyone who was left ... can you say FMP & carbon paper?? Only us folks old enough to be carbon-dated even knew what carbon paper was ... too funny.

>

 

[OldSolduer]

Reminds me of this time last week in KAF with no DWAN and the computers gone for everyone who was left ... can you say FMP & carbon paper?? Only us folks old enough to be carbon-dated even knew what carbon paper was ... too funny.

>

FMP and the carbon paper (which doubled as field expedient cam) is far better than e-mailing. You don't read half teh e-mails that are sent cause everyone is sending them for everything, like birthday announcements and cr@p like that.

FMP had advantage of face to face comms -  much better than e-mails.

 

[Michael OLeary]

The problem is this policy was implemented to cater to the weak minded individuals who couldn't even hack 4 weeks without phones. It is pathetic and it sounds like someone is trying to increase graduation numbers to pad a PER...not that things like that ever happen.  :

So, the occasional worthy recruit for whom access to a cell phone will help to avoid a family crisis not of their own making that could otherwise lead to a VR isn't important to us? They're not worth keeping because some only want to focus on this mysterious group of "weak-minded individuals" that apparently we never would have identified otherwise? We've had enough threads here discussing how our recruit base isn't all fresh-faced 18-year olds fresh out of high school with a fresh apron-string-ectomy scar; some have ongoing personal lives that they have done their best to put on hold while in training, but a little more flexibility in supporting their need to have occasional contact may ensure we keep those worth having.

It's time we stop acting like there is no possible benefit here by narrowing our view to only those we would wish to deny the capability.

 

[armyvern]

FMP and the carbon paper (which doubled as field expedient cam) is far better than e-mailing. You don't read half teh e-mails that are sent cause everyone is sending them for everything, like birthday announcements and cr@p like that.

FMP had advantage of face to face comms -  much better than e-mails.

I agree, but I wonder if Edward Campbell and Old Sweat knew how much they'd change the world of future operations with that carbon paper invention of theirs. What's old is new again!!

>

 

[armyvern]

So, the occasional worthy recruit for whom access to a cell phone will help to avoid a family crisis not of their own making that could otherwise lead to a VR isn't important to us? They're not worth keeping because some only want to focus on this mysterious group of "weak-minded individuals" that apparently we never would have identified otherwise? We've had enough threads here discussing how our recruit base isn't all fresh-faced 18-year olds fresh out of high school with a fresh apron-string-ectomy scar; some have ongoing personal lives that they have done their best to put on hold while in training, but a little more flexibility in supporting their need to have occasional contact may ensure we keep those worth having.

It's time we stop acting like there is no possible benefit here by narrowing our view to only those we would wish to deny the capability.

If lack of a cell phone is going to CAUSE a family crisis ... sigh. What are they going to do while deployed?

See the difference between the two?

If a recruits family is already in a crisis not of their own making that could otherwise lead to a VR needs a phone ... he'll get one. Guaranteed; and, the CF won't even make him pay for the required calls or air time to get it sorted out.

Please, as a CSM, if one of my pers is having that much issues that are MAJOR and a CRISIS ... we have ways of assisting with such. Personal cell phone not required for that to happen, so let's not all sit here and pretend that it is. Reality check. I may be a dinosaur, but I am not a heartless beotch. I would assist them in an instant as would each and every other leader I know.

 

[Hammer Sandwich]

So, the occasional worthy recruit for whom access to a cell phone will help to avoid a family crisis not of their own making that could otherwise lead to a VR isn't important to us?

Funny enough, I had two (2) family crises arise while in the service....one on course, and then one in the field.
(Not "you didn't wash yer shirts so I'm leavin" stuff....genuine stuff)

I was reached very promptly to inform me of both these items.

And I didn't even have a cellphone!

And didn't VR....especially in the middle of a course.

EGADS!

 

[GnyHwy]

FMP had advantage of face to face comms -  much better than e-mails.

This one is funny to me, because now a days you can have a detailed face to face conversation with someone, and the end of the conversation is usually the same everytime.

Either "I'll send you an e-mail", or "you send me an e-mail", once again detailing the conversation you just had.  GAAAAAWWDDDD!!!!!!

Separate note.  I just want to add my 2 cents to the ND conversation.  The amount that a person is charged is proportional to their level of training.  Operational ready soldiers will always have more severe punishment.  Higher ranks deserve larger punishment.  Since recruits are untrained $200 seems about right to me and an argument can be made to not even charge them at all.

How soon after learning the load, unload, ready and make safe do they get issued blank rounds?  Not a sarcastic remark; I don't know and am curious.

Edited to add: P.S.  It's not cool to be charged anymore?  When did this happen? 

 

[Hammer Sandwich]

How soon after learning the load, unload, ready and make safe do they get issued blank rounds?  Not a sarcastic remark; I don't know and am curious.

In my experience, (which lies somwhere between "Jack" and "shit").....we got rounds immediately.

Everything was monitored very closely, but we were bomed up with blanks.

 

[Hammer Sandwich]

were bomBed up with blanks.

(Couldn't edit my last post)

 

[PMedMoe]

If lack of a cell phone is going to CAUSE a family crisis ... sigh. What are they going to do while deployed?

See the difference between the two?

If a recruits family is already in a crisis not of their own making that could otherwise lead to a VR needs a phone ... he'll get one. Guaranteed; and, the CF won't even make him pay for the required calls or air time to get it sorted out.

Please, as a CSM, if one of my pers is having that much issues that are MAJOR and a CRISIS ... we have ways of assisting with such. Personal cell phone not required for that to happen, so let's not all sit here and pretend that it is. Reality check. I may be a dinosaur, but I am not a heartless beotch. I would assist them in an instant as would each and every other leader I know.

:goodpost:

 

[brihard]

I spoke with a little birdy.

The 66% greater retention rate (sounds like a big number) turned out to apparently equal 2 troops.
The platoon involved in it was the "warrior platoon".  Electronics were taken away from a platoon of newbies who just started basic training. The platoon of warriors were allowed to keep their electronics, some of whom have been kicking around the system for a year +.
Some people when told they were loosing their electronics, quit. (Are those the kinda soldiers we want defending Canada?)

In the end the 'do everything possible to keep these recruits in the CF' turned out to see less VRs....but more training failures. The ones who didn't belong and wanted to quit but were coerced into staying ended up passing recruit school  but failing their trades course, quitting down the road or punted out for discipline and administrative issues.

Wow. Someone never took a research methods class.

So you mean they actually trialed it on such a small scale with two very disparate groups of recruits? I'm surprised this hasn't gotten more comment.

 

[smale436]

"If lack of a cell phone is going to CAUSE a family crisis ... sigh. What are they going to do while deployed?"

I'm not a techno-geek I don't think. My cell phone is 4 years old and I have a CRT tv. I did not bring any electronics to BMQ six years ago other than a battery-powered clock. I didn't think we would be allowed the stuff at any point and it didn't really matter what the policy was as once the first weekend off came around, people invaded the mall and bought cell phones, DVD players, ipods, etc. It all came out at night but stuff still got done. In retrospect, I wish I had a camera back then as our DS never had a problem with those. Especially in the field phase where they would be in many of the photos.

As far as deployment, during 6 months in Italy for OP Mobile I was dumbstruck at some of the people and their addictions. People with 5 to 25 years of service I'm talking here. Our hotel had free wireless in the lobby but everyone bought USB-powered Tim or Wind rocket sticks for their rooms and work that never worked that great. The lobby was good enough for me the whole time but listening to the daily complaints got very old, very fast. "The stick isn't working and the Italian at the store won't refund my $ and pretends to not speak English", "my gaming is too slow", "Skype sucks and I need it as my kids don't know how to talk on the phone." I just shook my head as I thought we were very lucky to have the living conditions we had.

Mentioning how it could be worse, like when I was a kid and was lucky to get one collect phone call per week due to the high costs, didn't seem to help them realize how internet in Europe is a lot different than back home. I remember my father telling me a story how when he travelled to Germany over 20 years ago you could not make collect calls from that country. So ten people would pile into a van and drive half an hour to a border town in France (where you can call collect) to make a 15 minute call. Hearing about that made me enjoy being "off the grid" so to speak.

 

[2010newbie]

How soon after learning the load, unload, ready and make safe do they get issued blank rounds?  Not a sarcastic remark; I don't know and am curious.

On our BMOQ this past summer we were issued live rounds before blanks. We performed the weapons test in garrison at the end of the week (6??) and then went to the range the following Monday. They issued us the rounds as we walked onto the range for that specific shoot. If I remember correctly it wasn't until week 12 that we were issued blanks in the field. Our platoon staff took ND's seriously and there was one during our final exercise. That person was charged and had to pay somewhere around $150.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Wow. Someone never took a research methods class.

So you mean they actually trialed it on such a small scale with two very disparate groups of recruits? I'm surprised this hasn't gotten more comment.

This is what I am told.

The platoon to keep their electronics were the ones in the overweigh/medical broken platoon who have had access to their toys for a long timr already and the ones who had them taken away were the fresh new ones.
And percentage wise I'm told it translated into 2 extra people for that course.  I thought he said some courses can be as large as 90 troops.

I think if all of a sudden you banned electronics from the crew who had them all along you would see a large number of drop outs.  But them howard would quit or medically VR anyways.

All we accomplish with this policy is to shelter recruits
From one of the major hardships they will face down the road (and should be prepared for).

 

[SentryMAn]

It's the CF not Grade School, Less hand holding and more pushing recruits to perform better.

I did My basic 3 years ago.  We didn't have electronics available other then a camera(only 1 per section).  There were people that had things happen at home, they used the machine on the wall in the elevator rooms to talk to them, the main difference is that you weren't as comfortable as laying on your bed.

We had 4 VR's, 3 Re-courses, and 3 RTU's  NONE were due to the inability to adapt to lack of electronics.  I do see the point of the pro group, and the point of the anti group.  I still feel that Monday - Friday Electronics should be Off limits to recruits, Talk to your platoon mates rather then your buddy Johny on Facebook.  Call your Mom from the pay phone, Ask to receive mail(note there's no "E-" there).  Life after Garrison will get better, anyone can do it for 13-15 weeks.

But again in the grand scheme of things, it's at the CO's discretion, what they wish will be done.

I always wanted a course staff like "Major Payne"  ;D  But My platoon staff was amazing.

 

[Tank Troll]

I always wanted a course staff like "Major Payne"  ;D  But My platoon staff was amazing.

I've had a couple................and no you don't want them.
Most of us that have been in a while have had something go bad or happen while we were away and we dealt with it. I found out I was getting divorced in 94 while I was on tour in Bosnia. I got a couple of extra 10 minute welfare phone calls did all I could do on the phone then that was that. Having a cell phone wouldn't have made a bit of difference. Fast forward to 05 on my 6b 3weeks before Xmas and 2 weeks left in the course found out I was getting divorced again (yeah I know my track record sucks) I had a cell phone that time and spent almost all night for 2 nights trying to sort, beg, plead it out. I failled traces both days do to lack of sleep and worrying what was happening. One of my buddies was the DS and he sat me down and asked WTF was happening, I got some good advice and finished and passed the course(didn't bother phoning again). Did the cell phone help? Nope not one bit.