T
themaskeduser
Guest
possibly a volume of several books?
on the c7, i rememberd during my basic, the instructor pretty much told us that the c7 was pretty much a m16 with better performance to meet the needs of the CF eg; weather, etc....
you can't really go wrong with the standard service rifle of any country
after all every rifle is manufactured to meet the needs of the demographics
on the c7, i rememberd during my basic, the instructor pretty much told us that the c7 was pretty much a m16 with better performance to meet the needs of the CF eg; weather, etc....
you can't really go wrong with the standard service rifle of any country
after all every rifle is manufactured to meet the needs of the demographics
C
Carpenter
Guest
What Enzo said is exactly right. In the right hands, a Lee-Enfield is an amazing weapon. I have a friend who was in 2RCR and used to be on their match shooting team. He used no scope and was able to hit targets consistently at distances of 900 to 1000 yds. I guess it all depends on how good your eyes are. Anyway, all it takes is one shot and you are kaput. Any rifle is an instrument of death whichever way you cut it.
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I wrote a big rant about the C7A2....but the navigator ****ed up, 
and lost all but what I had "Cut" to move around in the post. Damn....am I pissed off. Oh well, here's the personal bit...
Now, I may not be in the CF...yet, but I was one of the first people to fire the C7A2, last year right before the DCRA's NSCC, being as how CFSC was cancelled. (My dad was running the Pistol Matches, practical and deliberate, and Capt. Keith Cunningham running the Service Rifle/Precision Rifle side). Being tested on the 50yrd (yes, they still haven't gone to metric up there) Pistol Ranges of Connaught Ranges, by a Weap Tech "MWO Gary Sutton" with the EMEs. They were trialing three rifles, with OD, White, and Tan Furniture. But, after 1500 rounds went through each of them in one day....they were jamming up (Although I'd like to see any other rifle do anywhere near that). Now, even though I had a cast on my left arm, (the resting arm) I was still able to hit the 1-inch bullet-hole patch they had set up next to a mini-Fig 11.
Instead of having the Elcan on the rifles, they were switching a thermal imaging sight from rifle to rifle. The sight was then hooked up to a monitor in the back of the CF JEEP Cherokee they were using to tote the stuff around in. Not to brag, but the Sgt, MWO, and civvies watching me were muttering "How is he hitting it", the Black bullet patch showing up as a white square with the White/Hot setting on the thermal sight. Through and Through, It was a nice, short rifle to handle, and tucked well into the shoulder. This being befored they developed the Butt-pad for the Telescoping stock, it gave a bit of a sharper kick on the shoulder, but I'm sure it wouldn't affect you nearly as much with a butt pad, flak jacket, and Tac-Vest on. :threat:
and lost all but what I had "Cut" to move around in the post. Damn....am I pissed off. Oh well, here's the personal bit... Now, I may not be in the CF...yet, but I was one of the first people to fire the C7A2, last year right before the DCRA's NSCC, being as how CFSC was cancelled. (My dad was running the Pistol Matches, practical and deliberate, and Capt. Keith Cunningham running the Service Rifle/Precision Rifle side). Being tested on the 50yrd (yes, they still haven't gone to metric up there) Pistol Ranges of Connaught Ranges, by a Weap Tech "MWO Gary Sutton" with the EMEs. They were trialing three rifles, with OD, White, and Tan Furniture. But, after 1500 rounds went through each of them in one day....they were jamming up (Although I'd like to see any other rifle do anywhere near that). Now, even though I had a cast on my left arm, (the resting arm) I was still able to hit the 1-inch bullet-hole patch they had set up next to a mini-Fig 11.
Instead of having the Elcan on the rifles, they were switching a thermal imaging sight from rifle to rifle. The sight was then hooked up to a monitor in the back of the CF JEEP Cherokee they were using to tote the stuff around in. Not to brag, but the Sgt, MWO, and civvies watching me were muttering "How is he hitting it", the Black bullet patch showing up as a white square with the White/Hot setting on the thermal sight. Through and Through, It was a nice, short rifle to handle, and tucked well into the shoulder. This being befored they developed the Butt-pad for the Telescoping stock, it gave a bit of a sharper kick on the shoulder, but I'm sure it wouldn't affect you nearly as much with a butt pad, flak jacket, and Tac-Vest on. :threat:
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Sorry about missing the whole point entirely, I just didn't want to waste any more of my time, by not posting the bit I saved.
No, I didn't really find any problems with the weapon, it fired just fine on Automatic......but then again the actions haven't been changed, they're still the same C7A1 Action, with the little rubber stopper bit to tighten up the action, and the Ambidexterous parts to make it easier for lefties. The only thing I did notice, was the receiver seemed alot tighter, nothing felt loose when the rifle was operating, not even on automatic. I'm sure it adds to accuracy.....a little bit. I'll have to get one for my AR-15. The rifle was a bit easier to fire than a full Length Armalite, with the buttstock being collapsed. I'll follow up with what I can remember from the lost post.
Thanks for the quick reply, I was waiting around for one.
Andrew
No, I didn't really find any problems with the weapon, it fired just fine on Automatic......but then again the actions haven't been changed, they're still the same C7A1 Action, with the little rubber stopper bit to tighten up the action, and the Ambidexterous parts to make it easier for lefties. The only thing I did notice, was the receiver seemed alot tighter, nothing felt loose when the rifle was operating, not even on automatic. I'm sure it adds to accuracy.....a little bit. I'll have to get one for my AR-15. The rifle was a bit easier to fire than a full Length Armalite, with the buttstock being collapsed. I'll follow up with what I can remember from the lost post.
Thanks for the quick reply, I was waiting around for one.
Andrew
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OK. Back to what I initially TRIED to post.
As we all know, the C7 was developed in the early 80's as a replacement for the FN FAL (C1). Luckily, the under-funded, liberal-ruined CF did the right thing, and followed the trend of 5.56 rifles being developed (We were at least 20 years behind the US's transition to a lighter round) instead of developing another 7.62 weapon. Again, luckily, we chose an Armalite-type rifle. (In My opinion, one of the most versatile weapon systems that has been developed so far)
Completely skipping the C7A1, I move onto the C7A2. It is, as far as anyone is concerned, the newest combat weapon out there....at least for the next year or so. (Even if it is just an upgrade). Even if it isn't exactly what the NCMs wanted, it is a step upwards. Retaining the full-length barrels may work out to be an advantage, instead of adopting an across the board Carbine barrel, which would, at longer ranges, limit the effectiveness of the rifle. Even though most of the conflicts we are seeing now are turning into FIBUA battles, there may be a need, in the future, for a full length barrel.
Now to the other end of the weapon, the Collapsible Buttstock. I dont know why other designers didn't adopt these babies when they first came out. The only disadvantage to them: You cant carry a cleaning kit inside the trap. So what? Like you cant stuff one into your pocket? For the verstility that a telescoping stock provides, I think we can find another place for the cleaning kit. It gives you the ability to turn your full length rifle into a carbine length. This makes Armoured Personnel, Vehicle operators, and whoever else doesn't need to be cumbersomed by a long rifle's job alot easier. It also aids, once again, in anyone who has to do any inside-building work, running through crowds, or getting into small spaces i.e 'Ghan caves. The Butt Pad also softens the sharp-er kick associated with collapsibles without causing the butt to slip, affecting accuracy.
Also, changing the colour of the furniture on the weapon greatly increases cam and concealment. The only more noticeable thing than a helmet silouhette, has to be a black rifle on a cam background. Even if the entire rifle isn't cammed, it definitely breaks up the outline. With the OD being the standard, and the White and Tan being available Options.
Even the Ambidexterous controls are a stark improvement, saving lefties from having to fumble with standard right-handed controls.
Now, in my opinion, the least important addition must be the rails. I'm not against them whatsoever, but they dont make quite the impact on the rifle as everything above. We were still attaching flashlights, and other doodads before these rails came around. This just makes everything standard, with the always-there ability to attach whatever might be needed. And again, with combat moving more and more towards FIBUA, standard rails for a flashlight could come in very handy.
LAst, and definitely least, the CADPAT sling, just one more thing to reduce Black items on a soldier. In case anyone hasn't noticed, Black doesn't show up naturally in the wild, unless its on an animal's nose. One thing that can be fixed with the Tac Vest - Black Buckles. OD would of been much better.
And thats all I have to say about that
As we all know, the C7 was developed in the early 80's as a replacement for the FN FAL (C1). Luckily, the under-funded, liberal-ruined CF did the right thing, and followed the trend of 5.56 rifles being developed (We were at least 20 years behind the US's transition to a lighter round) instead of developing another 7.62 weapon. Again, luckily, we chose an Armalite-type rifle. (In My opinion, one of the most versatile weapon systems that has been developed so far)
Completely skipping the C7A1, I move onto the C7A2. It is, as far as anyone is concerned, the newest combat weapon out there....at least for the next year or so. (Even if it is just an upgrade). Even if it isn't exactly what the NCMs wanted, it is a step upwards. Retaining the full-length barrels may work out to be an advantage, instead of adopting an across the board Carbine barrel, which would, at longer ranges, limit the effectiveness of the rifle. Even though most of the conflicts we are seeing now are turning into FIBUA battles, there may be a need, in the future, for a full length barrel.
Now to the other end of the weapon, the Collapsible Buttstock. I dont know why other designers didn't adopt these babies when they first came out. The only disadvantage to them: You cant carry a cleaning kit inside the trap. So what? Like you cant stuff one into your pocket? For the verstility that a telescoping stock provides, I think we can find another place for the cleaning kit. It gives you the ability to turn your full length rifle into a carbine length. This makes Armoured Personnel, Vehicle operators, and whoever else doesn't need to be cumbersomed by a long rifle's job alot easier. It also aids, once again, in anyone who has to do any inside-building work, running through crowds, or getting into small spaces i.e 'Ghan caves. The Butt Pad also softens the sharp-er kick associated with collapsibles without causing the butt to slip, affecting accuracy.
Also, changing the colour of the furniture on the weapon greatly increases cam and concealment. The only more noticeable thing than a helmet silouhette, has to be a black rifle on a cam background. Even if the entire rifle isn't cammed, it definitely breaks up the outline. With the OD being the standard, and the White and Tan being available Options.
Even the Ambidexterous controls are a stark improvement, saving lefties from having to fumble with standard right-handed controls.
Now, in my opinion, the least important addition must be the rails. I'm not against them whatsoever, but they dont make quite the impact on the rifle as everything above. We were still attaching flashlights, and other doodads before these rails came around. This just makes everything standard, with the always-there ability to attach whatever might be needed. And again, with combat moving more and more towards FIBUA, standard rails for a flashlight could come in very handy.
LAst, and definitely least, the CADPAT sling, just one more thing to reduce Black items on a soldier. In case anyone hasn't noticed, Black doesn't show up naturally in the wild, unless its on an animal's nose. One thing that can be fixed with the Tac Vest - Black Buckles. OD would of been much better.
And thats all I have to say about that
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CF_Lifer,
You bring up some good point points - however I will disagree with you on a number of them.
Carbine barrels
as you can see the 16 (ish) barrel of the C8A2 would be a more effective ternimal performer with the 77gr Mk262 round that the 20" C7 barrel with C77 (M855/SS109) type ball.
We would then gain both a more compact and effective arm.
The new charging handle is a fricking disaster.
None of the new weapons have yet been issued with the ambi fireselector and the original Norgon Ambi catch has been replaced with Diemaco's more 'tooth' area version that is causing a number of magazines dropped by contact withthe soliders tacvest.
Colours - have the troops paint it in the areas we are fighting. So far we have no seen TAN as an availabel option and DLR told us there were no plans...
CADPAT SLING - we only have 5 / platoon curently - but too long for the C8A2's and useless on the C7A2/M203A1 combo's...
A single poitn sling like the Giles sling by Wilderness Products coudl have been procured to take adavtage of the sling plate loop on the carbine stock plate - ina neutral colour like coyote brown.
Did I mention the C79 :
no BIS...
Anyway enough of my rantings.
You bring up some good point points - however I will disagree with you on a number of them.
Carbine barrels
as you can see the 16 (ish) barrel of the C8A2 would be a more effective ternimal performer with the 77gr Mk262 round that the 20" C7 barrel with C77 (M855/SS109) type ball.
We would then gain both a more compact and effective arm.
The new charging handle is a fricking disaster.
None of the new weapons have yet been issued with the ambi fireselector and the original Norgon Ambi catch has been replaced with Diemaco's more 'tooth' area version that is causing a number of magazines dropped by contact withthe soliders tacvest.
Colours - have the troops paint it in the areas we are fighting. So far we have no seen TAN as an availabel option and DLR told us there were no plans...
CADPAT SLING - we only have 5 / platoon curently - but too long for the C8A2's and useless on the C7A2/M203A1 combo's...
A single poitn sling like the Giles sling by Wilderness Products coudl have been procured to take adavtage of the sling plate loop on the carbine stock plate - ina neutral colour like coyote brown.
Did I mention the C79 :
no BIS...Anyway enough of my rantings.
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Thats true, a heavier grain bullet would offer better Muzzel Velocity, thus, ending up with better ballistics, BUT, the SS109 is the NATO round. And nobody is going to turn away from the SS109. It is a "Politically Correct" round. As it is a "humane" round, that makes nice, clean holes. Doesn't mushroom out, and doesn't tumble before 600m. So, adopting a 16" (ish) barrel would make sense if we were to adopt a new round....but that's never going to happen. Plus, the Liberal government isn't willing to put more money towards new barrels. The Ambi-Dex latches are supposed to be in the new rifles, are you sure they dont have them in the C7A2s that are being given to the guys in 'Ghan? I wouldn't know...I'm not over there. Personally, I dont mind the tacti-latch, althought I admit, it would probably get caught on alot of things ina combat situation. I ordered one for my AR-15, helps for when you're quickly laying down on the mound, less to worry about when you're grabbing for the charging handle....but that isn't combat, thats near-perfect conditions on a range.
Piss poor that they haven't delivered more slings eh?
They do need to re-design the sling though. What do they call the mount they have for it? A Lobster claw? Someone correct me if I'm wrong,
Piss poor that they haven't delivered more slings eh?
They do need to re-design the sling though. What do they call the mount they have for it? A Lobster claw? Someone correct me if I'm wrong,
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Uhm
C77 fragments in human tissue at velocities ABOVE 2500fps
Any BS claim about a humane round is simple rubish...
Sorry if I was not more clear we have the Diemaco license built Ambi-Catch (originally by Norgon LLC) what we don't have is any of the ambidex fire control selectors.
We wasted $20 million on the boot sole fiasco and they say we dont have $ for barrels - thats horseshit...
C77 fragments in human tissue at velocities ABOVE 2500fps
Any BS claim about a humane round is simple rubish...
Sorry if I was not more clear we have the Diemaco license built Ambi-Catch (originally by Norgon LLC) what we don't have is any of the ambidex fire control selectors.
We wasted $20 million on the boot sole fiasco and they say we dont have $ for barrels - thats horseshit...
MJP
Army.ca Fixture
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More like the slings they have delivered are piss poor. 
There are tons of slings that are already proven that they could have chosen, and we don't really need it in cadpat....but I digress.
As for if they have the Ambi-dex fire selector latches in Afghanistan, I don't know but I do you know next month when I deploy along with Kevin.....our C7A2s(that we take) currently don't have them.
There are tons of slings that are already proven that they could have chosen, and we don't really need it in cadpat....but I digress.As for if they have the Ambi-dex fire selector latches in Afghanistan, I don't know but I do you know next month when I deploy along with Kevin.....our C7A2s(that we take) currently don't have them.
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The C77 round is a FMJ round, with a steel core. Which, is supposed to make a clean hole through tissue. Whether or not it fragments after hitting bone, I don't know. But I do know that on tissue...it would most certainly go right through. Any bullet that does otherwise is outlawed by International Convention (Geneva). Check out what I've written on the "AK-74 vs C7" line, it describes the Red Army's 5.45mm Round...that is an inhumane round. And thats exactly what its built for.
As for the Ambi-Catch, it is installed on Stock Diemaco C7A2s, and it listed on the site. If they are removed for some reason....that leaves me dumbfounded. What MIGHT of happened, is the CF might of just used their old receivers,.....which is probably what happened, because..its the CF. And might not have any of the Ambidextrous shindighers that Diemaco puts on.
The C77, which is a the Canadian designation for the SS109 round
"THIS CARTRIDGE COMPLIES WITH STANAG 4172" From the IMI 5.56mm SS109 Website.
As for the Ambi-Catch, it is installed on Stock Diemaco C7A2s, and it listed on the site. If they are removed for some reason....that leaves me dumbfounded. What MIGHT of happened, is the CF might of just used their old receivers,.....which is probably what happened, because..its the CF. And might not have any of the Ambidextrous shindighers that Diemaco puts on.
The C77, which is a the Canadian designation for the SS109 round
"THIS CARTRIDGE COMPLIES WITH STANAG 4172" From the IMI 5.56mm SS109 Website.
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CF-Lifer - you are completely incorrect in all your points here, except for the C77 being our version of SS109.
1) The law you are citing from the Hague Convention says nothing about fragmenting.
2) LOOK AND READ the ammo-oracle link I posted - It has the BEST open source data on 5.56mm wounding
3) The 5.45 bullet does not do anything special - in fact some woudl say it sucks MORE than the Russian 7.62x39 round
4) MJP and I have C8A2 / C7A2's (and each a pistol too for those who care :) at work, debating what they have with us, is a little retarded...
1) The law you are citing from the Hague Convention says nothing about fragmenting.
2) LOOK AND READ the ammo-oracle link I posted - It has the BEST open source data on 5.56mm wounding
3) The 5.45 bullet does not do anything special - in fact some woudl say it sucks MORE than the Russian 7.62x39 round
4) MJP and I have C8A2 / C7A2's (and each a pistol too for those who care :
) at work, debating what they have with us, is a little retarded...
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http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/dec99-03.htm
Laws of War :
Declaration on the Use of Bullets Which Expand or Flatten Easily in the Human Body; July 29, 1899
Declare as follows:
The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.
Furthermore US (and Canadian) JAG rulings have been that Open Tipped Match (OTM) Bullets (also known as BTHP - Boat Tail Hollow Point) are land warfare legal as they small opening is derived from proces of manufacture and not designed to open (they dont open like a conventional pistol hollow point - they yaw and potentially fragement like most other rifle projectiles.
Laws of War :
Declaration on the Use of Bullets Which Expand or Flatten Easily in the Human Body; July 29, 1899
Declare as follows:
The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.
Furthermore US (and Canadian) JAG rulings have been that Open Tipped Match (OTM) Bullets (also known as BTHP - Boat Tail Hollow Point) are land warfare legal as they small opening is derived from proces of manufacture and not designed to open (they dont open like a conventional pistol hollow point - they yaw and potentially fragement like most other rifle projectiles.
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Are you sure the C77 IVI is BTHP? I dunno, I know the 5.56 and the 7.62 rounds I reload are all BTHP, but I'm not sure if the C77 is. I have seen both, and I dont think the C77 IVI is of that Quality.
And yes, you're the ones with the Toys, and you know whats in them. All I said was the Diemaco Stock Factory rifles come with all the bits and pieces advertised. The C7A2s, as well as their upper, and lower receiver that you guys have, might not be fresh off the line.
And yes, you're the ones with the Toys, and you know whats in them. All I said was the Diemaco Stock Factory rifles come with all the bits and pieces advertised. The C7A2s, as well as their upper, and lower receiver that you guys have, might not be fresh off the line.
AmmoTech90
Army.ca Veteran
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The C77 is a FMJ round but it does not make neat clean hole through a person unless it drops below a certain velocity.
MedCorps
Sr. Member
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From first hand experience I have seen someone shot (in good old USofA while on a Trauma rotation) with M885 (which I think is the same as the Canadian SS109 / C77 round right?). In surgery, there was plenty of bullet fragments inside the wound (2 hits). The bullet did not hit bone, and both rounds were soft tissue / hollow organ strikes.
I have also seen this fragmentation on X-ray and then on examination of the pig we shot on course (BBBI) down in the States (again). The ammo used was the US M-855 and some older stuff M-193 they had laying around. The M-193 rounds seemed to me (on X-ray) to have a litte more fragmentation (N=3) but the instructor said they are pretty much the same. Not sure what the difference in between the 2 rounds.
Conclusion. Yep... M-855 and M193 round will leave bullet fragmentation in the wounds (N=9). That being said while on trauma rotation in the states I saw one or two GSWs that were caused by "AR-15s" The police being the identifer of the weapon and the round unknown (we would rather not see either in the ER). One of them was a low velocity strike (after passing through some dry wall and other house clutter and hitting the person sleeping on the couch). Round was still pretty much intact, and with 1" of penetration there was no fragmentation. The other one also resulted in minimal (if any fragmentation). Not sure why no fragmentation on civi street, but surely with NATO ammunition. Maybe the gang-bangers are not using NATO rounds <smile>.
Some thoughts...
Cheers,
MC
I have also seen this fragmentation on X-ray and then on examination of the pig we shot on course (BBBI) down in the States (again). The ammo used was the US M-855 and some older stuff M-193 they had laying around. The M-193 rounds seemed to me (on X-ray) to have a litte more fragmentation (N=3) but the instructor said they are pretty much the same. Not sure what the difference in between the 2 rounds.
Conclusion. Yep... M-855 and M193 round will leave bullet fragmentation in the wounds (N=9). That being said while on trauma rotation in the states I saw one or two GSWs that were caused by "AR-15s" The police being the identifer of the weapon and the round unknown (we would rather not see either in the ER). One of them was a low velocity strike (after passing through some dry wall and other house clutter and hitting the person sleeping on the couch). Round was still pretty much intact, and with 1" of penetration there was no fragmentation. The other one also resulted in minimal (if any fragmentation). Not sure why no fragmentation on civi street, but surely with NATO ammunition. Maybe the gang-bangers are not using NATO rounds <smile>.
Some thoughts...
Cheers,
MC
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