AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Spencer100]

Davie pushing hard for a second one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qVdJvcHUVk

 

[MilEME09]

Well wait to hear what sailors say once they get Resolve through her paces, but if the quality is there along with the fact that they delivered on time, and on budget, then Davie's work will speak for it self as to why we should get a second one. Would also be a shot at Seaspan if Davie could convert two ships into AOR's before steel was even cut on the berlins.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Davie pushing hard for a second one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qVdJvcHUVk

That is the first corporate video where I have ever heard them use the term "bullshit"....and I loved it.  :nod:

 

[jollyjacktar]

They seem have forgotten about all those equalization payments they keep getting from the other provinces, not to mention Bombardier buyouts.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

So Cdn Blackshirt likes the use of the word "bullshit", eh! Then let me use it to debunk once again the garbage that Jjt is dragging out here:

Here it is, Jjt: Your comment is bullshit! There is not a single province in Canada that pays equalization to the other provinces. None! Nada! Zero! Equalization is paid out of the Federal general fund, with everybody in Canada contributing to it on the exact same basis: individual income taxes, GST, corporate income taxes and customs and excises taxes. On that basis, BTW, Quebec and Ontario - even though they both get equalization payments - contribute 68% of Federal revenues. And, BTW also, "per capita" is the actual way to look at equalization because that is how it is calculated, and on that basis, the Atlantic provinces get three to six (P.E.I.) times more than Quebec or 5 to 8 times more than Ontario. Are you bitchin that Irving can't ask for Federal work in publicity videos?

Personally, considering the fact that no Berlin will hit the water or become operational for at least the next five years, why not give Davie another contract and get an other iAOR in 20 months from right now.

Also, for those not familiar with Canada's naval history, here is an interesting date: 1964. That is three years before construction of PRESERVER started. What is so important about that? It is the first year that the RCN indicated to the government of Canada that its requirement for support vessels called for four AORs. Though we never had more than three at a time, the RCN has never shied away from the fact that it has always called for four as the appropriate number.

Personally, my dream would be: Get Davie a contract for the next iAOR and in the meantime (20 months) acquire and produce all the plans and acquire long lead item to give them a contract to build two "power projection" vessels (Mistral's or Canberra's or equivalent) above and beyond the current CSC and Berlin's that Davie could get into right after the iAOR.

 

[Baz]

Personally, my dream would be: Get Davie a contract for the next iAOR and in the meantime (20 months) acquire and produce all the plans and acquire long lead item to give them a contract to build two "power projection" vessels (Mistral's or Canberra's or equivalent) above and beyond the current CSC and Berlin's that Davie could get into right after the iAOR.

That would be my dream as well; for you and I this is old ground.  *However* I have some questions for you if that were to come to fruition:
- Would you accept the two "power projection" vessels being the flag ships?
- If yes, would you accept giving all the CSC the capability to carry the AD required of the Iroquois replacement, and therefore make them all the same?
- How many CSC would you then consider the minimum and the optimum?

My answers:
- yes
- yes
- 6-8 min, 10-12 optimum

In effect, trade off CSC hulls for "power projection."

One step farther, what about putting the two "power projection" hulls plus two Resolve hulls on the East Coast, and then the 2 Berlins plus two flag capable CSCs on the West Coast, plus say 8-10 frigates? This would give us the capability to have a small "power projection" task group continually available on the East Coast, and a smaller task group continuously available on the West Coast, with some "power projection" capability in the Berlins.  In a major crisis the East and West Task groups could marry up on station, giving a "power projection" and joint task force flag, a Maritime flag, a on station supply (Berlin), a supply runner (Resolve, with the Berlin coming out to meet if force protection requires it), and 3-4 escorts.

Given that we would have to man the "power projection" hulls, I'm just curious on your thoughts.

 

[jollyjacktar]

OGBD, sorry to have hit a nerve there.  My point is that everybody in this country helps each other.  Region to region.  They came across to me that QC was getting shafted.  My counter is they also get benefits as do we all.  The equalization payments come from the Feds whom get it from the group.  Helping companies like Bombardier help the province as a whole.  We all benefit from having a stronger navy regardless of who builds it.  They're not alone in the wilderness, unloved and forgotten.  That's how l view it, if you don't agree.  So be it.

 

[Cloud Cover]

How do Mistrals /Canberra etc serve the  "soft power, high skill expertise" the government is peddling right now. Ships like that are designed to bring a fight to the enemy, (of which we apparently have exactly 0). Leadmark 2050 briefly mentions a "peace operations support ship" complete with aerial and seaborne "connectors" after 2035, but is also very clear no assault capabilities are in contemplation.  Basically, what they are suggesting is a fancy ferry with a well deck and maybe a helo pad.

Note: I would like to see LHD/LPD ships as well for the RCN, but chances are next to zero for that.

 

[Infanteer]

One step farther, what about putting the two "power projection" hulls plus two Resolve hulls on the East Coast, and then the 2 Berlins plus two flag capable CSCs on the West Coast, plus say 8-10 frigates? This would give us the capability to have a small "power projection" task group continually available on the East Coast, and a smaller task group continuously available on the West Coast, with some "power projection" capability in the Berlins.  In a major crisis the East and West Task groups could marry up on station, giving a "power projection" and joint task force flag, a Maritime flag, a on station supply (Berlin), a supply runner (Resolve, with the Berlin coming out to meet if force protection requires it), and 3-4 escorts.

I know you're asking OGBD, but I'll chime in.  I agree with all of your assertions, but would argue that the "power projection" ships need to go on the Pacific.  There is more open water for them to use/manoeuvre, more areas of interest to access, and a geopolitical area where they'd more likely be called for.  Sailing a "power projection ship" into the Baltic or Black Sea just doesn't seem like a good idea.  There is a reason the USN/USMC weights its amphibious elements to the Pacific by about a ratio of 3:2.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I can understand Davie wanting to keep their people employed, they aren't shy about letting others lose their jobs for that to happen. I would love to see 2 Resolve class AORs and 2 "power projection" vessels, as to crewing, the base crew of a Mistral is slightly less than that of Tribal, had we gotten the 2 Mistrals that were built, we could have easily manned them at the time, by the time we would get them now I not sure that would be possible. Mind you they would be modern and roomy and that might attract more people. The majority of the delays for the NSPS has been on the government side. Out here in the west coast we saw very few government contracts and Seaspan had to exist purely on private contracts for a long time.

 

[Stoker]

I would love to see 2 Resolve class AORs and 2 "power projection" vessels, as to crewing, the base crew of a Mistral is slightly less than that of Tribal, had we gotten the 2 Mistrals that were built, we could have easily manned them at the time, by the time we would get them now I not sure that would be possible.

Even at the time it wasn't possible and we were playing the shell game of pier head jumps to man what we have, its significantly worse.

 

[MilEME09]

Even at the time it wasn't possible and we were playing the shell game of pier head jumps to man what we have, it significantly worse.

Would it be accurate to say then as of right now without significant uptake in recruitment we won't be able to man the new fleet?

 

[Stoker]

Would it be accurate to say then as of right now without significant uptake in recruitment we won't be able to man the new fleet?

I think we can, that is why the new ships will have more automation and a significant crew reduction. The RCN is trialing this now.

 

[Kirkhill]

Thanks Chief....

A continuing source of aggravation that I have routinely expressed is the emphasis by some on body-count in the navy when, to my way of thinking, the appropriate parameters are hull-count, sensor-coverage and throw-weight.

Hotel space takes up volume which drives up costs.
Bodies drive up training costs and pension costs.
Time at sea drives up retention costs.

It is apparently/obviously hard to recruit and retain which means packages get more expensive and contracts get shorter, which drive up costs.

All of those rising personnel costs, with a fixed budget, drive down procurement funds and operating funds - which reduces hulls - which reduces coverage.

As much as it is difficult to accept a different way of doing business a viable navy will have to drastically reduce the number of berths per hull.  Even if that means "giving up the ship".

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

If anybody here has reasonable command of French,here is link to the documentary that  the French CBC did on Sunday (go to 12 November episode) on the Asterix. Interesting because it is the first time that we see and get the views of the naval architect behind the transformation. And for those who think that the CF second language training is a waste ... see what happens when you are put in a situation where you get to use your skill for a while: Spencer's French is pretty good - with little "Englishman" accent left in this one.

http://ici.radio-canada.ca/tele/decouverte/site

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The Brits are getting a similar looking ship as our Resolve Class, although I think it's more oriented to being a tanker than all round replenishment ship.


https://www.vesselfinder.com/news/10814-The-UK-Royal-Fleet-Auxiliarys-Tide-Class-Tankers-Delivered-Powered-by-GE


https://static.vesselfinder.net/images/media/284cc9249c02557c9a51821033acd365.jpg

 

[AlexanderM]

The Brits are getting a similar looking ship as our Resolve Class, although I think it's more oriented to being a tanker than all round replenishment ship.


https://www.vesselfinder.com/news/10814-The-UK-Royal-Fleet-Auxiliarys-Tide-Class-Tankers-Delivered-Powered-by-GE


https://static.vesselfinder.net/images/media/284cc9249c02557c9a51821033acd365.jpg

Great looking ships and the price was so good. We could have had 2 per coast and saved lots of money. There is a replenishment version.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

No we couldn't have saved money, nor would it be useful to have two per coast.

They are tanker - that's it - nothing more. They carry and transfer fuel, avgas and some water and lube oil in drums. That's it. They have a very, very, very limited storage capacity for cargo, of a maximum of eight 20 foot containers. That's insignificant. No capacity to handle heavy cargo, no capacity for heavy underway jackstay. and a very small helo hangar for  single medium helicopter (though they can land up to a Chinook on deck).

No cold storage or freezers or food or dry good stores, no ammunition stores and transfer capability, no general stores for aviation or ship's parts. No medical facility, no dental facility, no "tween-deck" for stowage of large cargo or army vehicles/materiel or aid to civil power/disaster relief operations, no heavy cranes, no landing/cargo boats of any sort. No capacity to act as a host ship for civilian evacuations, etc. etc.

Need I go on? Wrong ships for Canada - OK for the UK because they have a full set of other types of support vessels, they don't travel as far as we do (usually), and they have a full amphibious capability in other types of ships.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Davie plays the lay-offs card too--though completely self-interested its proposal makes sense, note the Seaspan JSS timeline now:

Chantier Davie won’t take ‘no’ for an answer

Chantier Davie in Lévis, across the St. Lawrence from Quebec City, will be forced to lay off 800 shipyard workers before Christmas without a new contract to build a second supply vessel for the Canadian navy.

“We’re not taking no for an answer on that,” Davie CEO Alex Vicefield said in a telephone interview on Thursday, after Defence Minister Harjit Singh Sajjan told Le Journal de Québec last week through his press attaché that the government does not plan to buy a second supply ship.

In an email response Thursday, Sajjan’s press attaché Bryne Furlong reiterated that, “Navy and Coast Guard supply requirements have been extensively studied and are subject to long-term planning, which does not include a second supply vessel‎.”

The layoffs have begun, now that the Davie workforce has completed — on time and on budget — conversion of the German-built container ship Asterix into a supply ship to deliver fuel, water, food and supplies to the ships of the Royal Canadian Navy.

Davie’s plan now is the $600 million conversion of the Obelix, a sister ship to the Asterix, into the navy’s second supply ship. Vicefield said Ottawa’s plan calls for paying $2 billion each for two new supply vessels, the first of which will only be available 10 years from now.

“Why do we need to build these ships for $2 billion each?” Vicefield asked, noting the Asterix and Obelix cost $600 million each and are superior vessels.

“I’m not a political activist but we believe in the project and we delivered,” Vicefield said.

In 2011, the Harper government unveiled its National Shipbuilding Procurement Program, awarding $38-billion in contracts to build ships for the Navy and Coast Guard to Irving Shipbuilding Inc. of Halifax and Seaspan Shipbuilding of Vancouver.

Davie, emerging from bankruptcy at the time, is Canada’s largest shipyard and was excluded.

Cost estimates have risen since then, Vicefield noted, with the cost ballooning to over $100 billion. And in the six years since the plan was announced, the two winning shipyards have delivered no ships.

Officially, Seaspan is to launch its first replacement supply ship in 2021.

But Vicefield noted that Andy Smith, the official responsible for shipbuilding in the federal department of fisheries and oceans, told a Commons committee Nov. 7 that Seaspan has a backlog of three ships to build before work on the first supply ship can begin in 2023, for delivery in 2027 [emphasis added]...

Vicefield regards the Harper government’s plans, renamed by the Liberal government as the National Shipbuilding Strategy, as “mind-boggling” and “a bit of a joke.”

And he believes Canada can have three shipyards, including Davie, to build and maintain naval and Coast Guard vessels.

“There are about 50 large ships that need replacing,” he said, noting the average age of the Coast Guard fleet is 40 years [emphasis added]. “So there is enough work for sure for three shipyards for the next 30 years.”

“We haven’t been pushing against the National Shipbuilding Strategy,” Vicefield said. “I think it is going to fall on its own.”

Irving, which is now building ships in Romania, and Seaspan, which has ordered two ferries to be built in Turkey [!!! emphasis added], are defending the plan, and so far have political support [Quebec is giving Davie loud political support too, and Liberals want more seats there]....
https://ipolitics.ca/article/chantier-davie-wont-take-no-answer/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[MarkOttawa]

Tweet by Quebec premier:
https://twitter.com/phcouillard/status/937031199557607424

Philippe Couillard‏ @phcouillard

Je serai parmi vous demain [Dec. 3] pour marcher en solidarité avec les 800 travailleurs et leur famille. Montrons notre confiance en leur savoir-faire et demandons l’équité pour @chantierdavie et les chantiers navals du #Qc. #PolQc

Take that, Justin Trudeau et al.

Mark
Ottawa