AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Kirkhill]

Interesting graphic on how the Asterix might be outfitted for a humanitarian mission.

http://www.davie.ca/humanitarianshiptour/
https://www.facebook.com/chantierdavie/photos/a.507767432609909.1073741825.470600409659945/1529901637063145/?type=3&theater

I see some chap name of Colin concerned about CIWS systems.

And the National Post seems pleased.

http://nationalpost.com/opinion/np-view-canadian-forces-pull-off-a-rare-feat-a-procurement-triumph#comments-area

I wonder how VADM Norman is getting along these days?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Yea that wanker gets around

I am pleased that it is fitted for, that's a start......

 

[jollyjacktar]

The Post is spot on.

 

[chrisf]

In speaking with the Federal Fleet folks they're hoping to have ex-RCN crew whenever possible.  Shouldn't be too much worries about culture from that standpoint.

At least four of the officers hired as last week are definitely ex-navy.

Apparently they're paying well.

 

[Stoker]

At least four of the officers hired as last week are definitely ex-navy.

Apparently they're paying well.

The 2nd mate and the 4th Engineer are currently Naval reservists.

 

[chrisf]

Sorry, belive it or not, that was a typo, should have definitely not ex-navy.

I say they're paying well because we had a couple of guys quit off our boat for jobs there.

Not sure how high tech the asterix is but considering the Navy I coming from a 50 steamer, whether they realize it or not they will probably benefit from some outside experience.

We routinely do transfers of fuel and cargo at sea...

It's done with different equipment, in a different way, and at a different pace than the Navy does, but the asterix is going to be different than the Navy is used to.

Tools.like a "new" DP system and "new" UMS will be game changers if used as designed.

Depending on the construction of the ship, the Navy may even have difficulty applying procedures they've traditionally used.

 

[Stoker]

Sorry, belive it or not, that was a typo, should have definitely not ex-navy.

I say they're paying well because we had a couple of guys quit off our boat for jobs there.

Not sure how high tech the asterix is but considering the Navy I coming from a 50 steamer, whether they realize it or not they will probably benefit from some outside experience.

We routinely do transfers of fuel and cargo at sea...

It's done with different equipment, in a different way, and at a different pace than the Navy does, but the asterix is going to be different than the Navy is used to.

Tools.like a "new" DP system and "new" UMS will be game changers if used as designed.

Depending on the construction of the ship, the Navy may even have difficulty applying procedures they've traditionally used.

The ship is very modern and the RAS system and liquid cargo handling system is similar to what other navies are using. The Naval personnel will be running the RAS gear and yes the civilians are getting paid well with great benefits.

 

[chrisf]

The ship is very modern and the RAS system and liquid cargo handling system is similar to what other navies are using. The Naval personnel will be running the RAS gear and yes the civilians are getting paid well with great benefits.

"Very modern" is subjective, if it has its original conning and automation system, it's at least a generation behind.

It'll be sufficient for the job regardless, it just may be dramatically different than what the Navy is used to.

For example, we (the ship I work on)  can handle everything for a transfer of fuel from a single chair on the bridge... starting  stopping pumps, navigation, ballast and stability calculations.

Laid out more like the cockpit of an air plane than a traditional ships bridge.

By policy it's handled by two individuals in two chairs, one does cargo and the other does ship handling, but it hysically can be physically done by one person.

By paid well, the guys i know left a job making between $100k-120k where they were constantly griping about money (we're on the (low end of average for the industry) so I would assume they're making more than that.

I'm not saying we we're sad to see them go, but we wish them well in their future endeavors

 

[Stoker]

"Very modern" is subjective, if it has its original conning and automation system, it's at least a generation behind.

By paid well, the guys i know left a job making between $100k-120k where they were constantly griping about money (we're on the (low end of average for the industry) so I would assume they're making more than that.

I'm not saying we we're sad to see them go, but we wish them well in their future endeavors

Everything has been replaced, its an essentially a new ship. I'm sure the naval personnel posted to it will be training in its operation. The cargo handling system is more like a AOR as there is a training factor involved to preserve skills when our own AOR's are built. Yes they are paid well for essentially working half a year.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

"Very modern" is subjective, if it has its original conning and automation system, it's at least a generation behind.

It'll be sufficient for the job regardless, it just may be dramatically different than what the Navy is used to.

For example, we (the ship I work on)  can handle everything for a transfer of fuel from a single chair on the bridge... starting  stopping pumps, navigation, ballast and stability calculations.

Laid out more like the cockpit of an air plane than a traditional ships bridge.

By policy it's handled by two individuals in two chairs, one does cargo and the other does ship handling, but it hysically can be physically done by one person.

By paid well, the guys i know left a job making between $100k-120k where they were constantly griping about money (we're on the (low end of average for the industry) so I would assume they're making more than that.

I'm not saying we we're sad to see them go, but we wish them well in their future endeavors

Not A Sig Op, considering I am not aware of anyone else than navies (and their associated auxiliary fleets) who do underway refuelling, I have two questions: (1) If it's not state secret, who do you work for? And, (2) what need is there for ship handling and cargo work simultaneously?

 

[chrisf]

Off shore supply vessels.

Not underway, or at least not very often, typically transfers are to stationary rigs, but have also done it to and from moving rigs, as well as moving construction and seismic ships.

Doing it underway usually depends on what it is, how bad they want and how soon they want to get where they're going.

We're not moored or anchored in anyway even when stationary, hence.the need for ship handling and cargo.

There's fewer and fewer supply vessels around without DP systems now, but until about 5 years ago they were still common, meaning that when you backed into a rig to do whatever sort.of work, cargo, passenger transfers, etc, someone had to be manually driving (acceptable sea state varies, but we routinely did cargo in 6 meter seas)

As of the last five years, it's usually a DP system handling everything along side the installation, but there's still supply vessels operating with manual handling only.

Obviously the experience is different than how a Navy does replenishment at sea, but you've also got a new suite of tools to work with, some of these tools with be completely foreign to naval crew.

I've dealt with a number of brand new vessels in the past number of years, despite training, I've found it usually takes time to understand , trust and fully utilize any new tools, particularly a lack of trust in automated systems..

Ironically, the majority of accidents with modern sysfems are operator errors, most modern systems while not totally failure proof,  are exceptionally failure resistant, and quite good at self monitoring.

Obvioisly a RAS system is a navy thing, no one else needs to do it that fast or in that insane of a way, but It's the experience with other systems is where the Navy stands to benefit from the experience of some civilian sailors.

Cross pollination of ideas and experience is never a bad thing, it's why we have exchange programs with other militaries.

 

[Stoker]

Off shore supply vessels.

Not underway, or at least not very often, typically transfers are to stationary rigs, but have also done it to and from moving rigs, as well as moving construction and seismic ships.

Doing it underway usually depends on what it is, how bad they want and how soon they want to get where they're going.

We're not moored or anchored in anyway even when stationary, hence.the need for ship handling and cargo.

There's fewer and fewer supply vessels around without DP systems now, but until about 5 years ago they were still common, meaning that when you backed into a rig to do whatever sort.of work, cargo, passenger transfers, etc, someone had to be manually driving (acceptable sea state varies, but we routinely did cargo in 6 meter seas)

As of the last five years, it's usually a DP system handling everything along side the installation, but there's still supply vessels operating with manual handling only.

Obviously the experience is different than how a Navy does replenishment at sea, but you've also got a new suite of tools to work with, some of these tools with be completely foreign to naval crew.

I've dealt with a number of brand new vessels in the past number of years, despite training, I've found it usually takes time to understand , trust and fully utilize any new tools, particularly a lack of trust in automated systems..

Ironically, the majority of accidents with modern sysfems are operator errors, most modern systems while not totally failure proof,  are exceptionally failure resistant, and quite good at self monitoring.

Obvioisly a RAS system is a navy thing, no one else needs to do it that fast or in that insane of a way, but It's the experience with other systems is where the Navy stands to benefit from the experience of some civilian sailors.

Cross pollination of ideas and experience is never a bad thing, it's why we have exchange programs with other militaries.

What your describing is a very different animal. Fueling while underway is one thing, also take into account we will be fueling up to 2 ships at a time and transferring cargo through heavy jack stay and helo ops. The civilians will be navigating, steering, cooking, and operating the propulsion plant and systems. The navy will be operating the cargo handling systems and the transfer of dry or liquid cargo. There will be extensive training for both crews in Nov/Dec to bring them up to an acceptable standard. We will have to learn from the civilians, just as the civilians will have learn from us although some of the crews will be ex military along with being current military(reservists).

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Thanks for the info, Not A Sig Op.

That makes sense to me now. And yes, Dynamic Positioning (for those who didn't know what DP stood for) sure is a sweet system. But before it, even with all the bow/stern trusters found on Oil rig supply ships, maintaining position under the cranes, etc. was a good ship handling exercise.

 

[chrisf]

What your describing is a very different animal.

To be clear, I never said it wasn't.

Just that you're going to have a whole new ship to it with.

 

[jollyjacktar]

What your describing is a very different animal. Fueling while underway is one thing, also take into account we will be fueling up to 2 ships at a time and transferring cargo through heavy jack stay and helo ops. The civilians will be navigating, steering, cooking, and operating the propulsion plant and systems. The navy will be operating the cargo handling systems and the transfer of dry or liquid cargo. There will be extensive training for both crews in Nov/Dec to bring them up to an acceptable standard. We will have to learn from the civilians, just as the civilians will have learn from us although some of the crews will be ex military along with being current military(reservists).

Not totally.  The HT part of liquid cargo care and custody and getting it to the station with Stoker help is being done by the civilian crew.  That skill is going to be lost.  I pointed tgat out to Federal Fleet last year.  No changes were made.  More slippage.  I may not know much, but l do know my RAS stuff, we're not covering all the bases.  I suspect the people who were gaming out this concept were not from the coal face but head office.

 

[Stoker]

Not totally.  The HT part of liquid cargo care and custody and getting it to the station with Stoker help is being done by the civilian crew.  That skill is going to be lost.  I pointed tgat out to Federal Fleet last year.  No changes were made.  More slippage.  I may not know much, but l do know my RAS stuff, we're not covering all the bases.  I suspect the people who were gaming out this concept were not from the coal face but head office.

Interesting, but this is all MARTECH now. Undoubtedly this will be picked up by the Sea Training Hull Tech when trials are done as we'll still have that billet for several more years until the org changes. I'll imagine at some point that skill will be implemented into the trade.

 

[Stoker]

To be clear, I never said it wasn't.

Just that you're going to have a whole new ship to it with.

Fair enough, yes its a whole new ship, just if we had the new AOR's built. I would imagine if cooler heads prevail we'll be taking the ship over from the civilians at some point if we decide to exercise the purchase option.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Interesting, but this is all MARTECH now. Undoubtedly this will be picked up by the Sea Training Hull Tech when trials are done as we'll still have that billet for several more years until the org changes. I'll imagine at some point that skill will be implemented into the trade.

Where are they going to learn that side of the house?  That skill set is being allowed to wither and die on the vine.  By the time the PRO class comes out any corporate knowledge will have retired.  I don't imagine it will be properly implemented as this whole almagamation has been largely fucked up from the get go. 

When l use the legacy terms it is for clarity because with respect to RAS operations they all had different roles in getting fuel to the station and over to the customer.  Stokers operated the cargo pumps for DFO at HT direction and HT pumped the JP5.  HT took care of the cargo, controlled where it came from and where it went to both incoming and outgoing, set up the fuel dump station and manned it during RAS and Bunkering.  All this is not being captured in the iAOR.

DECK make sure the lines, wires and hoses get across and relayed start/stop pumping orders from the other ship to the HT at the station.  Very important and dangerous and the skills need to be kept but so do the others.  If nobody knows how to get the cargo to the station... and that is a FAIL in the iAOR training.

 

[chrisf]

Where are they going to learn that side of the house?  That skill set is being allowed to wither and die on the vine.  By the time the PRO class comes out any corporate knowledge will have retired.  I don't imagine it will be properly implemented as this whole almagamation has been largely ****ed up from the get go. 

When l use the legacy terms it is for clarity because with respect to RAS operations they all had different roles in getting fuel to the station and over to the customer.  Stokers operated the cargo pumps for DFO at HT direction and HT pumped the JP5.  HT took care of the cargo, controlled where it came from and where it went to both incoming and outgoing, set up the fuel dump station and manned it during RAS and Bunkering.  All this is not being captured in the iAOR.

DECK make sure the lines, wires and hoses get across and relayed start/stop pumping orders from the other ship to the HT at the station.  Very important and dangerous and the skills need to be kept but so do the others.  If nobody knows how to get the cargo to the station... and that is a FAIL in the iAOR training.

This is part of what I'm getting ar about the "new ship"

How much of this was a manual operation on a 50 year old ship? Opening valves, lining up tanks, starting and stopping pumps, controlling flow, etc.

Does it even need to be an important skill set on future ships? Or alternately will methods be changed? (I genuinely don't know, just asking the question)

On a new modern civillian ship, all of this, plus reballasting as cargo is discharged, can be/is done from an integrated UMS display, graphically showing your tanks, pumps, valves,lines, etc, and it's done from the bridge, with an identical display/control system in the control room.

If you're used to manual operation of systems, it's going to be very hard to trust an automatic system, particulalry given the navy has a "navy" way of doing things, based on long standing training and procrdures, based on 50 year old ships, but that's some of the new tools a new ship brings to the table.

It's a great opportunity to examine the Navy way of doing things for future warships as well... do you need as many crew.to operate a future ship? Can you reduce numbers of certain trades to increase numbers of other trades? Etc.

They stopped making 50 year old ships 50 years ago.

 

[Kirkhill]

Where are they going to learn that side of the house?  That skill set is being allowed to wither and die on the vine.  By the time the PRO class comes out any corporate knowledge will have retired.  I don't imagine it will be properly implemented as this whole almagamation has been largely fucked up from the get go. 

When l use the legacy terms it is for clarity because with respect to RAS operations they all had different roles in getting fuel to the station and over to the customer.  Stokers operated the cargo pumps for DFO at HT direction and HT pumped the JP5.  HT took care of the cargo, controlled where it came from and where it went to both incoming and outgoing, set up the fuel dump station and manned it during RAS and Bunkering.  All this is not being captured in the iAOR.

DECK make sure the lines, wires and hoses get across and relayed start/stop pumping orders from the other ship to the HT at the station.  Very important and dangerous and the skills need to be kept but so do the others.  If nobody knows how to get the cargo to the station... and that is a FAIL in the iAOR training.

And how did you elect your shop stewards?  ;D