AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Colin Parkinson]

I think we can, that is why the new ships will have more automation and a significant crew reduction. The RCN is trialing this now.

How do you think brand new ships would affect morale and retention? The AOP's will bring more room for the sailors and different missions.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Note what head of Davie says about JSS delivery dates--would push new CCG icebreaker from Seaspan out to end of 2020s:

Opinion: Canada's flawed shipbuilding strategy needs to be righted
...
The alarm bells should have been ringing last month when, in a written response to a parliamentary committee, the associate deputy minister of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, Kevin Stringer, declared that the actual delivery dates for all ships to be built under the strategy at Seaspan’s shipyard in Vancouver are now secret and cannot be released, even to members of Parliament.

This unusual response came after the new deputy commissioner of the Canadian Coast Guard, Andy Smith, revealed that Seaspan will not be able to start construction of the navy’s ships until it has completed four other ships for the Coast Guard. The dates he provided paint an entirely different story to what the public has previously been told and, even in a best-case scenario, means construction of the support ships will begin no earlier than 2023, with the first ship delivered in 2026 [emphasis added].

The Department of National Defence continues to maintain the first joint support ship from Seaspan will be ready by 2021. But not a single ship has been delivered in the six years since the strategy was launched, and now we are to believe the Vancouver shipyard will suddenly deliver five ships in four years.

With Davie currently contracted to provide only one “interim” naval support ship until the Joint Support Ships are ready — a ship being delivered this month — Canada will not be able to deliver on its recently published defence policy, which requires having a naval support ship on each coast, for at least another decade.

To cover the 10-year gap, Davie has offered to build [actually convert] and lease to the navy a second naval support ship. But accepting our offer would, it seems, be too painful an admission for senior bureaucrats who were the proud architects of the current strategy...

Alex Vicefield is chairman of Davie Shipbuilding in Lévis. 
http://montrealgazette.com/opinion/opinion-canadas-flawed-shipbuilding-strategy-needs-to-be-righted

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Stoker]

How do you think brand new ships would affect morale and retention? The AOP's will bring more room for the sailors and different missions.

I think initially it will help but when you end of spending 5 months in the Arctic year after year it won't be so attractive, much like MCDV's.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I understood that they were going to change crew mid-season when up North.

Let's remember that just because there will be 5 AOPS, you are still unlikely to find all five of them up North at the same time. I suspect two or three only at any given time.

Moreover, I suspect that since the Northern season corresponds in good part with the summer, it will be possible to substitute a number of "summer-employed" reservists in many of the trades (not the engineering ones, however, and unfortunately) such as Bosn, NciOp, Navcoms, cooks and even for some NWO's. These reservists are usually college or university students and won't have the problems associated with family separation. I know that when I was a student and doing four months at a time on the reserve vessels, I would have jumped at the possibility of being paid to go up North with a vessel. Heck! People pay good money for the experience and our full summers were spent away from home anyway.

 

[Stoker]

I understood that they were going to change crew mid-season when up North.

Let's remember that just because there will be 5 AOPS, you are still unlikely to find all five of them up North at the same time. I suspect two or three only at any given time.

Moreover, I suspect that since the Northern season corresponds in good part with the summer, it will be possible to substitute a number of "summer-employed" reservists in many of the trades (not the engineering ones, however, and unfortunately) such as Bosn, NciOp, Navcoms, cooks and even for some NWO's. These reservists are usually college or university students and won't have the problems associated with family separation. I know that when I was a student and doing four months at a time on the reserve vessels, I would have jumped at the possibility of being paid to go up North with a vessel. Heck! People pay good money for the experience and our full summers were spent away from home anyway.

They might and might not as crewing will be tight. Probably three at the same time with Kingston Class ships as well,and no ports to speak of. There is plans for at least 10 to 12 billets per ship to be reservists.

 

[Kirkhill]

I understand that the AOPS accommodation, at 85, is unchanged from the 2012 offerings of STX. 

On the other hand the intended crew has expanded from 45 to 65.  Can the ships be sailed with crews of 45?  And what does that do to concerns over manning?

I understand Svalbard sails with a sea crew of about 50 from a total crew of about 75 with a regular rotation of half the crew so as to maintain continuity.

 

[Stoker]

I understand that the AOPS accommodation, at 85, is unchanged from the 2012 offerings of STX. 

On the other hand the intended crew has expanded from 45 to 65.  Can the ships be sailed with crews of 45?  And what does that do to concerns over manning?

I understand Svalbard sails with a sea crew of about 50 from a total crew of about 75 with a regular rotation of half the crew so as to maintain continuity.

Crewing as I understand it is still evolving, the ship is highly automated from what I can gather. I was through her some time ago and there is a 20 man mess as well as regular crew accommodations. I really don't know where they will get the crew from although the Kingston Class will eventually reduce in crew size at some point. the Kingston Class wuill be used as a feeder for the Class as it is a Diesel Electric ship and will be operated similarly.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Note what head of Davie says about JSS delivery dates--would push new CCG icebreaker from Seaspan out to end of 2020s:

Mark
Ottawa

Seaspan will launch the first OFSV Dec 12th, the two others are moving along quickly. There is a delay in the Science Vessel, likely due to design issue around stability. My understanding is that the JSS was to start next. They could start on components of it, when the last OFSV is completing and the SV is also coming together. SS has access to two other facilities, one in Esqiumalt and the other in Vancouver they can use as well. 

 

[Kirkhill]

OOSV stability issues?  Is that necessitating a redesign in the same way the OFSVs? 

And what is the common point of origin requiring these redesigns?

 

[NavyShooter]

https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:755049/mmsi:316030879/imo:9348182/vessel:ASTERIX

Notably, the Asterix is now on her way to Halifax.

NS

 

[Stoker]

https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:755049/mmsi:316030879/imo:9348182/vessel:ASTERIX

Notably, the Asterix is now on her way to Halifax.

NS

Yes due in Halifax on Boxing day, starting RAS trials in Jan.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Asterix has arrived.  Pier 20.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/nova-scotia/new-navy-supply-ship-arrives-in-halifax-1.4465284

 

[dapaterson]

Incredible how innovation can happen when PSPC is told to butt out, and the usual band of bandits are cut out of the process.

 

[Underway]

Asterix has arrived.  Pier 20.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/nova-scotia/new-navy-supply-ship-arrives-in-halifax-1.4465284

From the article:

They will welcome aboard members of the Royal Canadian Navy to begin training next month and will support the vessel's operations for the next 10 years.

I thought the contract is for 5 years with the option for 5 more.  I guess there was a bit of a Freudian slip there.  Though I expect it will be operational with the RCN for the next 20 years!

Incredible how innovation can happen when PSPC is told to butt out, and the usual band of bandits are cut out of the process.

Agreed. Asterix will be excellent on the west coast in 2018.  Combined with visits to Singapore, historic sub ops with the Japanese, and two ships working with the South Korean's recently I get the feeling that there is a pattern here.  Just can't quite put my finger on it...  rly:

 

[dapaterson]

Canada's Pacific shift?  Long overdue.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Incredible how innovation can happen when PSPC is told to butt out, and the usual band of bandits are cut out of the process.

Which is why the Liberals are not letting it happen again.

As for those questioning the CBC coverage of the ship arriving in Halifax: Don't worry, it's just the usual incompetent reporting on anything military by the said CBC. Look at the article, while not saying it directly, it sure makes it sound like the Asterix is a ship delivered as part of the Shipbuilding Strategy - which we all know to be completely false - as it is a ship delivered from outside source as a result of the failures of the said strategy to deliver AOR's in a timely fashion. 

 

[Navy_Pete]

Which is why the Liberals are not letting it happen again.

As for those questioning the CBC coverage of the ship arriving in Halifax: Don't worry, it's just the usual incompetent reporting on anything military by the said CBC. Look at the article, while not saying it directly, it sure makes it sound like the Asterix is a ship delivered as part of the Shipbuilding Strategy - which we all know to be completely false - as it is a ship delivered from outside source as a result of the failures of the said strategy to deliver AOR's in a timely fashion.

In the defence of CBC on this one, it may be because PSPC has included the repair, refit and services under a pillar of the NSS.  Which is stupid, because it is, after all, a ship building strategy but they can't differentiate construction from the wider marine industry.

If you look on the official page, it's buried at the bottom.  Expect there will be a GoC newrelease at some point about it as well once folks are back

At least they attended the launch of OFSV 1 in Vancouver three weeks ago; that was a pretty quiet affair for some weird reason.
https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/mer-sea/sncn-nss/projets-projects-eng.html

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I'll chalk the arrival up as a BZ for the RCN, and a failure of the government of Canada (despite there being a *new* ship in town).

 

[MTShaw]

From Facebook:

Royal Canadian Navy Today and Yesterday added 3 new photos.
Yesterday at 15:09 ·

Lets talk about MV Asterix and not get into any debate about which one is better, MV Asterix for the next 10 years will be contracted by the government of Canada to provide AOR services to the RCN with a mixed civilian and military crew on both coasts. The RCN after the initial lease has option to buy. This ship is a interim measure as it lacks certain aspects that a purpose built naval AOR has. The JSS will have two shafts to Asterix's one, JSS will have a citadel for a NBC environment, JSS is also ice edge capable allowing it to operate in the Arctic, JSS will also have a roll on, roll off capability for vehicles. There are not minor features. There's certainly room for both classes of ships in the RCN, with the JSS in high threat areas and the Asterix or sister ships in areas where the threat is minimal and disaster relief. There is plenty of replenishment work to go around. Make no mistake about it, MV Asterix is a capable ship.

MV Asterix is undoubtedly a job well done to the hard working members of Davie and a success story to be proud of, they worked diligently converting the former container ship working long hours. Sub contracting the rather large accommodation section to overseas which was smart on their part as they lacked the expertise to produce it themselves. It would be great to have another however the government of Canada seems to have slammed the door on that prospect.
Hopefully in the future more work can be given to them perhaps in converting some ships to CCG use.

 

[FSTO]

It would be great to have another however the government of Canada seems to have slammed the door on that prospect.
Hopefully in the future more work can be given to them perhaps in converting some ships to CCG use.

That's because when it comes to defence policy our government is run by morons.

I would hope that it was Marc Garneau the Liberal Party Politician talking not Marc Garneau the former Naval Officer when he made this statement.

Transport Minister, and former navy officer, Marc Garneau said the federal government doesn’t need another supply ship.
”We cannot artificially create a need for something that doesn’t exist,”

Because if he made that statement as a Naval Officer he should be taken out of the House of Commons and shot with a ball of his own poop in front of the Naval Memorial.