AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[jollyjacktar]

Quite frankly, in all of my time in the Navy, I only saw those landing crafts unshipped once: When PRE went into refit, and even then, they used the dockyard crane to do the deed. While carried, they were hardly ever used.

And Sunray, I don't know where you get that the helicopters for the DEWOLF need to carry "electronics". BTW the new Coast Guard helicopters only have the latest electronics for avionics, which I believe includes a weather radar, but no surface search radar capability. They also (some but not all - Colin can you confirm this?) have a FLIR, but that's it.

The DEWOLF will carry whatever helicopter may be required for the mission, and most likely one for the primary purpose of ice observation, which can only be done visually. However, the most likely helicopters you will find on board will be (1) a Cost Guard one or (2) a Cyclone.

The later is more than up to the task of surface search in support of sovereignty patrol, and it can also carry about as many personnel as a Griffon.

What is important to remember is that the DEWOLF, as is the ASTERIX, are capable of handling any and all of the helicopters in the Canadian inventory - RCAF or Coast Guard.

On a half NATO in the Caribbean in 2000, we used the landing craft to come ashore and return from PRE to the North coast of Curaco during a multinational exercise.  The trip was slow, wallowly and overall damned uncomfortable.  Beats swimming though or jamming in like sardines on a RHIB if a bunch have to go somewhere (not in a hurry).  And my feet were dry when we hit the beach.

 

[FSTO]

Did you break an ankle jumping off the the "ramp" that stopped lowering when it was 4ft off the ground?  :rofl:

Piece of junk

 

[Good2Golf]

The old landing craft are gone. I watched the last two sail on the ex-Preserver to the scrapper a few days ago.

On a different issue mentioned in this thread, the question of what type of helicopter should operate from MV Asterix also applies the the new Harry Dewolf Class. This new class is not designed as a warfighter but is intended to do sovereignty patrols and therefore the helicopter needs eyes-human and electronic. The new Canadian Coast Guard Bell 421 EPI or Bell 429 have both capabilities and transport capacity as well. The RCAF Griffon helicopter can transport people, stuff and do visual searches but is not radar equipped. Is there any intent to upgrade a few for operation from these ships?

As OGBD noted, let the CH-148 Cyclone do that work.  What radar would you suggest fitting a small number of Griffon's with?  What capabilities should that radar have?  How would such a capability be integrated into the ship and the Recognized Maritime Picture? What additional training would be provided for the tactical aviation crews?  Who would pay for the incremental acquisition of constant-wear immersion suits?  Who would pay for the increased budget to institute a corrosion control program for the ship-borne CH-146s? Etc...

Sometimes great ideas aren't so great.

:2c:

Regards,
G2G

 

[MilEME09]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XThWzV1BZE

found this video someone did from the ceremony for Astrix, she's a pretty ship, I'll give her that

 

[Underway]

On a different issue mentioned in this thread, the question of what type of helicopter should operate from MV Asterix also applies the the new Harry Dewolf Class. This new class is not designed as a warfighter but is intended to do sovereignty patrols and therefore the helicopter needs eyes-human and electronic. The new Canadian Coast Guard Bell 421 EPI or Bell 429 have both capabilities and transport capacity as well. The RCAF Griffon helicopter can transport people, stuff and do visual searches but is not radar equipped. Is there any intent to upgrade a few for operation from these ships?

Cyclone will operate from the Asterix and the HDW.  In particular the Cyclone can be used for VERTREP from the Asterix with more weight carried then the Sea King could.  I would not be surprised if the Cyclone was overkill in the arctic or that the HDW ended up using new UAV's just for ice scouting.  Not sure what the plan is there, but the AOPS can land a Chinook.  She can't operate one but one can land if necessary.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Will, or can?

 

[Loachman]

Is there any intent to upgrade a few for operation from these ships?

There is no intent to upgrade it for its intended role, and we do not have enough machines and crews for its intended role.

Using http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/aircraft-current/ch-146.page as a reference the Griffon can carry 10 passengers plus crew.

Not necessarily. That presumes light/no baggage, and the weight of every person/thing carried comes out of the weight of fuel carried hence a range or endurance reduction.

 

[Good2Golf]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XThWzV1BZE

found this video someone did from the ceremony for Astrix, she's a pretty ship, I'll give her that

Wasn't the Foc'sl supposed to be covered?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

According to the drawings made public, yes.

However, she is not completely finished at the time of this ceremony. For instance, you may have noted that the two cargo handling cranes, also supposed to go by the foc'sole break, are still on the jetty. I think it may just be that this is one of the last section to be finished (and it would make sense to cover last if you are still working on finishing the various dry cargo holds, ammunition magazines and containers handling systems that go below the foc'sole).

 

[Good2Golf]

According to the drawings made public, yes.

However, she is not completely finished at the time of this ceremony. For instance, you may have noted that the two cargo handling cranes, also supposed to go by the foc'sole break, are still on the jetty. I think it may just be that this is one of the last section to be finished (and it would make sense to cover last if you are still working on finishing the various dry cargo holds, ammunition magazines and containers handling systems that go below the foc'sole).

Ah, that makes sense.

Cheers

G2G

 

[Stoker]

Wasn't the Foc'sl supposed to be covered?

The foc'sole  won't be covered with a bow cap, that was only in the early concept drawings.

 

[Underway]

Will, or can?

*shrug*  Your guess is as good as mine.  I don't know why you would go through the trouble of designing a ship that can land and use a Cyclone without using the capability at least on some level.  I don't think the Chinook capability was really designed as anything but a really nice big landing spot for the Cyclone, and just happens to be able to work for a Chinook.  But suppose there is some sort of emergency and the AOPs are the closest safe place to put down a Chinook for refuel/rest etc...  Might be useful.  Better to have the capability and not need it then the other way around.  Who knows, perhaps we trial it and its a genius idea using a lilypad AOPS/Chinook for whatever purpose.

We do have a history of groundbreaking work with big helo's on little ships.

 

[Stoker]

*shrug*  Your guess is as good as mine.  I don't know why you would go through the trouble of designing a ship that can land and use a Cyclone without using the capability at least on some level.  I don't think the Chinook capability was really designed as anything but a really nice big landing spot for the Cyclone, and just happens to be able to work for a Chinook.  But suppose there is some sort of emergency and the AOPs are the closest safe place to put down a Chinook for refuel/rest etc...  Might be useful.  Better to have the capability and not need it then the other way around.  Who knows, perhaps we trial it and its a genius idea using a lilypad AOPS/Chinook for whatever purpose.

We do have a history of groundbreaking work with big helo's on little ships.

AOPS will routinely carry a Cyclone when she deploys. Cyclone will be used for reconnaissance, insertions during boardings and also to ferry people and equipment to and from the ship. AOPS will act as landing pad for Griffins, etc including Coastguard. I doubt we will operate CG helo's. IAOR will operate in a similar fashion.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

CCG helo's are owned and operated by TC, they are assigned to a ship as required. If the Astriex is going to the Arctic, it's quite possible that DND will "rent" a helo and crew along with an ice pilot to go along with her. It would actually be a good idea and allow some experimentation and cross-pollination of ideas.

 

[Stoker]

AOPS will routinely carry a Cyclone when she deploys. Cyclone will be used for reconnaissance, insertions during boardings and also to ferry people and equipment to and from the ship. AOPS will act as landing pad for Griffins, etc including Coastguard. I doubt we will operate CG helo's. IAOR will operate in a similar fashion.

I was talking to people in the know today about the helos of both AOPS and IAOR and need to revise what previously said. AOPS calls for a light utility helicopter which the Cyclone isn't. Even though the Cyclone will operate on AOPS because its not designed to provide an extensive maintenance capability Cyclones  I believe a lighter aircraft is the way to go, much the same as the HUP 3 that operated off HMCS Labrador. The Cyclone has a powerful sensor suite that is good for reconniance and has a decent cargo ability which I this is very useful to Arctic OPS. CCG aircraft could possibiliy operate off AOPS, although a Griffon would make a good choice as well.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I wonder if Davie will pitch the USN a solution that is quick http://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2017/08/28/report-navys-resupply-and-surge-sealift-ships-facing-readiness-decline/

 

[Baz]

I was talking to people in the know today about the helos of both AOPS and IAOR and need to revise what previously said. AOPS calls for a light utility helicopter which the Cyclone isn't. Even though the Cyclone will operate on AOPS because its not designed to provide an extensive maintenance capability Cyclones  I believe a lighter aircraft is the way to go, much the same as the HUP 3 that operated off HMCS Labrador. The Cyclone has a powerful sensor suite that is good for reconniance and has a decent cargo ability which I this is very useful to Arctic OPS. CCG aircraft could possibiliy operate off AOPS, although a Griffon would make a good choice as well.

Although I don't know what planning has happened in the last couple of years to address the issue, the Cyclone force structure as approved by the SOR didn't include the requirement to support any AOPS as well...

... and 12 Wing is a long way from the approved force structure...

 

[Stoker]

Although I don't know what planning has happened in the last couple of years to address the issue, the Cyclone force structure as approved by the SOR didn't include the requirement to support any AOPS as well...

... and 12 Wing is a long way from the approved force structure...

From what I have been told they will operate there in certain cases. Most likely the reason why 20 ft ISO containers can be stored inside.

 

[Baz]

From what I have been told they will operate there in certain cases. Most likely the reason why 20 ft ISO containers can be stored inside.

But there will still only be so many dets to go around; the price will have to be paid somewhere.

Although https://avernica.wordpress.com/2017/08/17/the-butterfly-effect-with-fighter-jets/ speaks to the issues of deploying 4 CF-18's to Romania and how it may affect the RCAF, the author is an ex Wing OpsO and Commander 423(MH)Sqn, who learned the follow on impacts of over deploying a fleet at 12 Wing...

 

[Stoker]

But there will still only be so many dets to go around; the price will have to be paid somewhere.

Although https://avernica.wordpress.com/2017/08/17/the-butterfly-effect-with-fighter-jets/ speaks to the issues of deploying 4 CF-18's to Romania and how it may affect the RCAF, the author is an ex Wing OpsO and Commander 423(MH)Sqn, who learned the follow on impacts of over deploying a fleet at 12 Wing...

For sure, if I was a betting man the first few deployments will be with Cyclone and then never to be seen again.