AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Good2Golf]

That way lies madness....

Next you will be proposing that other tasks in environments where bullets are not a risk factor could be civilianized - things like SAR, Air/Space Surveillance (Satellites and UAV), Maintenance, other Logistics.

Then the manning limit of 65,000 or whatever it currently is could be applied to uniformed personnel tasked with going into harm's way.

Madness indeed! 

When first-world blue water Navies start contracting civilian helicopters in operational theatres to support their military sealift logistic support vessels, then we'll know that the end of the earth is coming!

Oh wait...

 

[SeaKingTacco]

There is nothing saying we can't do civvy helos at sea- we actually have the operating rules for that already written.

 

[Underway]

There are a couple of sections working on various aspects of it; understanding what the civilian standards means to the ships we're getting (from a general perspective) is one part.  Another is looking at how we do the (internal) certification for the basic 'safe at sea' equipment to try and learn from people that do this for a living and improve our own policies.

It's mostly the old NMPRO section (that is now in DNPS under MEPM), but basically the naval material assurance policy people, with others from the various technical sections as well.  People working on the ISSCs get sucked in as well from time to time.

I think if I ever personally get posted to one of those policy jobs I'll lose my will to live, but glad some people love that kind of work.

That's exactly what I was wondering.  I also looked into it a bit and this follows on with your "safe at sea" comment. 

In 80s through to early 90s the RCN and ADM(Mat) were able to maintain our ships themselves.  The crews and FMF were also very highly qualified.  Since then our resources have been reduced quite a bit while the gov't requirements for ship safety have increased in the same time.  As such there is a lot of strain on the resources (if any) to maintain suitable standards to prove that the ships are safe.  We may be even unable to prove safety in many cases (not saying ships aren't safe, but without a standard to compare with, you can't prove it even if they are).

The Lloyds that is being worked with is not the marine insurance branch but the classification society which deals with marine safety.  The RN uses many of these rules as a technical standard.  There is also the NATO Naval Ship Code for warship safety.  These two set of rules help provide a framework from which we can base our own standards which are going to be implemented.

What I interpret from this is that when the internal discussion on who gets what money within DND, the RCN can point to the technical standard, the spreadsheets, the maintenance, and the survey data from the ships and say that we need $X so we can keep the ships safe, so we don't lose Y capability by Z time.  The air force is very good at this sort of stuff (air safety and all that).  It will also be useful in briefing the civil service and Ministers office on exactly how much money gets you exactly what capability.

 

[Stoker]

Before we go to sea we compare the technical readiness of the ship on the material baseline standard for that class. The MBS is a document that lists all the safe at sea requirements of a class in a table that we need to have operational before the ship can get off the wall. If we had to go, and the ship didn't meet MBS, then a risk assessment is conducted and a waver asked for.

 

[Stoker]

Project Resolve will be the RCN's first real exposure to modern civilian standards, so hopefully they take a good look, see what they like, what they can live with and what they can't. I look forward to the Astreix refueling the Harry DeWolfe for the for the first time while doing vertical re supply with a Cyclone. Speaking of which, since they are leasing the ship, how about leasing 2 S-92 for the air detachment?

Civilian standards have already been used in the Kingston class, and is being used in AOPS. Lloyd’s Register classification society have been involved with both of those builds.

 

[Navy_Pete]

That's exactly what I was wondering.  I also looked into it a bit and this follows on with your "safe at sea" comment. 

In 80s through to early 90s the RCN and ADM(Mat) were able to maintain our ships themselves.  The crews and FMF were also very highly qualified.  Since then our resources have been reduced quite a bit while the gov't requirements for ship safety have increased in the same time.  As such there is a lot of strain on the resources (if any) to maintain suitable standards to prove that the ships are safe.  We may be even unable to prove safety in many cases (not saying ships aren't safe, but without a standard to compare with, you can't prove it even if they are).

The Lloyds that is being worked with is not the marine insurance branch but the classification society which deals with marine safety.  The RN uses many of these rules as a technical standard.  There is also the NATO Naval Ship Code for warship safety.  These two set of rules help provide a framework from which we can base our own standards which are going to be implemented.

What I interpret from this is that when the internal discussion on who gets what money within DND, the RCN can point to the technical standard, the spreadsheets, the maintenance, and the survey data from the ships and say that we need $X so we can keep the ships safe, so we don't lose Y capability by Z time.  The air force is very good at this sort of stuff (air safety and all that).  It will also be useful in briefing the civil service and Ministers office on exactly how much money gets you exactly what capability.

The NATO ship code is slowly being rolled out, although older ships don't necessarily meet all the performance based goals for each section, so it's a bit piecemeal.  Our certification plan for the frigates is largely based on that.

It is a big learning curve, and a huge pain in the ass to keep the records up to date, but in a resource limited environment, having the data available is really helpful in prioritizing resources, and I was able to use it (and the MBS standards) to get a lot of extra work done before the deployment.  Additionally, even after the rationalization the frigates have a huge maintenance load, so that helps prioritize the critical maintenance, the really important maintenance, and the rest of it for when you can get to it.

Ideally this will eventually get taken a step further and we will use EHM properly to do minor CM before it becomes a big problem.  Optimistic that ISSCs will be better at this (as it saves a tonne of money in the long run) and that culture diffuses across the rest of the Navy.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

New Davie video out, most of it is talking heads, but early in there are some good drone video of the vessel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHva7cQg3Qo

 

[MilEME09]

On time, on budget, and being praised by liberals, what strange world did I wake up in? who are you all and what did you do with my Canada?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It's in the "anointed Province" and therefore politically acceptable. Plus it's actual good news for a change, the fact the Tories started it, is quietly buried. I will give Davies credit though, they are delivering, although Seaspan won't be far behind with the First OFSV, followed by a far distant Irving and it's AOPs. Early next year, I think?

 

[Underway]

It's in the "anointed Province" and therefore politically acceptable. Plus it's actual good news for a change, the fact the Tories started it, is quietly buried. I will give Davies credit though, they are delivering, although Seaspan won't be far behind with the First OFSV, followed by a far distant Irving and it's AOPs. Early next year, I think?

AOPS is about 6-9 months out from what I recall on open house day.  They are going to put them on one of those semi-submersible heavy lift ships, take her out into Bedford Basin and then float her there.

 

[NavyShooter]

With the current drinking policies....it makes me wonder if the bottle of 'champagne' was actually sparkling grape juice instead....?

;-)

 

[Cloud Cover]

Curious if they have actually ordered the landing craft shown in the videos, or are they re-using the ones from Protecteur?

 

[FSTO]

Curious if they have actually ordered the landing craft shown in the videos, or are they re-using the ones from Protecteur?

No. Those are gone and good riddance!

 

[sunrayRnfldR]

The old landing craft are gone. I watched the last two sail on the ex-Preserver to the scrapper a few days ago.

On a different issue mentioned in this thread, the question of what type of helicopter should operate from MV Asterix also applies the the new Harry Dewolf Class. This new class is not designed as a warfighter but is intended to do sovereignty patrols and therefore the helicopter needs eyes-human and electronic. The new Canadian Coast Guard Bell 421 EPI or Bell 429 have both capabilities and transport capacity as well. The RCAF Griffon helicopter can transport people, stuff and do visual searches but is not radar equipped. Is there any intent to upgrade a few for operation from these ships?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I suspect that will trigger quite the bun fight, likely they end up "renting" CCG helicopters for a bit.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Quite frankly, in all of my time in the Navy, I only saw those landing crafts unshipped once: When PRE went into refit, and even then, they used the dockyard crane to do the deed. While carried, they were hardly ever used.

And Sunray, I don't know where you get that the helicopters for the DEWOLF need to carry "electronics". BTW the new Coast Guard helicopters only have the latest electronics for avionics, which I believe includes a weather radar, but no surface search radar capability. They also (some but not all - Colin can you confirm this?) have a FLIR, but that's it.

The DEWOLF will carry whatever helicopter may be required for the mission, and most likely one for the primary purpose of ice observation, which can only be done visually. However, the most likely helicopters you will find on board will be (1) a Cost Guard one or (2) a Cyclone.

The later is more than up to the task of surface search in support of sovereignty patrol, and it can also carry about as many personnel as a Griffon.

What is important to remember is that the DEWOLF, as is the ASTERIX, are capable of handling any and all of the helicopters in the Canadian inventory - RCAF or Coast Guard.

 

[Baz]

<Cyclone> is more than up to the task of surface search in support of sovereignty patrol, and it can also carry about as many personnel as a Griffon.

Using http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/aircraft-current/ch-146.page as a reference the Griffin can carry 10 passengers plus crew.  The Cyclone can carry 6 plus 4 crew in ASW config or 22 (normally including 2 crew) plus Pilot and Co-Pilot in utility config (which would not have the mission computer but could still use the radar and EO/IR).

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

/pedant on

I wish you Air Force types would stop misspelling "Griffon" as "Griffin". This is not Family Guy.

I know that the use of the "iff" instead of "yph"  in the middle of the word confuses you anglos - but the damn bird has a proper name and it should be used.

/pedant off

[

 

[Baz]

I wish you Air Force types would stop misspelling "Griffon" as "Griffin". This is not Family Guy.

You are of course correct... my apologies.

Of course, you are assuming I gave a $%!# enough when I was typing it to think about it...

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Quite frankly, in all of my time in the Navy, I only saw those landing crafts unshipped once: When PRE went into refit, and even then, they used the dockyard crane to do the deed. While carried, they were hardly ever used.

And Sunray, I don't know where you get that the helicopters for the DEWOLF need to carry "electronics". BTW the new Coast Guard helicopters only have the latest electronics for avionics, which I believe includes a weather radar, but no surface search radar capability. They also (some but not all - Colin can you confirm this?) have a FLIR, but that's it.

The DEWOLF will carry whatever helicopter may be required for the mission, and most likely one for the primary purpose of ice observation, which can only be done visually. However, the most likely helicopters you will find on board will be (1) a Cost Guard one or (2) a Cyclone.

The later is more than up to the task of surface search in support of sovereignty patrol, and it can also carry about as many personnel as a Griffon.

What is important to remember is that the DEWOLF, as is the ASTERIX, are capable of handling any and all of the helicopters in the Canadian inventory - RCAF or Coast Guard.

I have not seen their loadout but since CCG helicopters working on ship do mostly slinging, transport and ice recce, I be surprised if they had search radar, I know the King Airs also used by Transport Canada (the CCG heli's are owned by TC) have weather radar, so it's possible the helicopters might get that. FLIR would be highly useful for SAR, but as buying, mounting and maintaining it cost money and budget, I doubt it. Just looking online they did minimal mods to it and I don't see any FLIR mounted in the any pictures I have seen, perhaps down the line. The Good thing about the 429 is that the blades fold and that might make it an attractive option for both the AOP's and the Asterix AOR. Plus parts and training exist within the government procurement system.