AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[jollyjacktar]

I'll believe there is a solution to this problem when I see it sailing into/out of  the harbour.  I heard believed the promises 12 years ago, I'm still waiting and won't see myself stepping on the deck before my time in the Navy is done.

 

[a_majoor]

Well, since we are going to wait a while, this technology promises to reduce fuel consumption:

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2011/10/mitsubishi-builds-a-bubble-boat-for-better-efficiency/

Mitsubishi Builds a Bubble Boat For Better Efficiency

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By Keith Barry Email Author October 26, 2011 |  8:30 am |  Categories: Marine

Grain conglomerate Archer Daniels Midland has ordered three dry bulk carriers that blow bubbles to improve fuel efficiency.

The boats, to be completed by 2014, rely on Mitsubishi Heavy Industries’ proprietary Mitsubishi Air Lubrication System (MALS). The setup uses massive blowers to create a layer of bubbles underneath an already streamlined hull in order to further reduce friction.

Mitsubishi claims that MALS can reduce CO2 emissions by a quarter compared with conventional dry bulk carriers. Considering the ships will carry about 100,000 tons including cargo, fuel and crew, that’s a significant reduction.

Serious plans to install MALS on an oceangoing carrier began just over a year ago, when Mitsubishi got some help from the Japanese government and private foundations to put MALS on module carriers — ships that bring heavy equipment to industrial development sites, like the one shown above. Back then, the company estimated that carbon emissions could be reduced 10 percent.

The grain carriers will gain additional efficiencies from a unique propulsion system that puts its fins ahead of the propellers. The ship’s bow reduces the amount of waves it makes for even smoother sailing that doesn’t disrupt the bubbles beneath.

The three ships ordered by ADM will be 131 feet wide and 777 feet long and will be built by Oshima Shipbuilding. It’s the first time another shipbuilder has been selected to install MALS on a boat not built by Mitsubishi.

While the "CO2 reduction" is for the climate alarmists, in real terms this means the ship is burning a lot less fuel, which is a big deal, especially over the lifetime of the ship. The dimensions of these ships are much larger than our AOR's, so I'm not sure how well this scales, but even a 10% increase in fuel economy should be worth going for.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Would this bubble machine not make more noise allowing an AOR (and its escorts) to be detected at an even greater range?

 

[GAP]

I would think it would definitely have a recognizable audio signature.

 

[Occam]

I would think it would definitely have a recognizable audio signature.

Yup.  It would likely sound like rain.

Same principle as the Prairie Masker.

 

[a_majoor]

You could always turn it off where the threat is high. I did not realize this was an update of  Prairie Masker

 

[Occam]

Calling it an update of Prairie Masker would be a stretch.  Prairie Masker was intended to reduce the noise signature of a ship. This new system is designed to increase fuel efficiency.  The principle is the same - bubblers under the hull.  The difference would probably be the volume of air, but the sound probably wouldn't be all that much different listened to from afar.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Would this bubble machine not make more noise allowing an AOR (and its escorts) to be detected at an even greater range?

As if an AOR can hide from anything.  I am sure the new girls will be mostly just as damn noisy as the old ones.

 

[GAP]

Calling it an update of Prairie Masker would be a stretch.  Prairie Masker was intended to reduce the noise signature of a ship. This new system is designed to increase fuel efficiency.  The principle is the same - bubblers under the hull.  The difference would probably be the volume of air, but the sound probably wouldn't be all that much different listened to from afar.

Well that answers my question.  But what about the fishies........we're gonna make them healthier by pumping all the oxygen into the water (it works in aquariums... :nod, now all we need to do is add fish flakes and the boats will be lost in the noise of the fishies fighting over the food...........

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

As if an AOR can hide from anything.  I am sure the new girls will be mostly just as damn noisy as the old ones.

True but do you not practice Sonar Quiet states like we do on CPFs and 280s? I realize a tanker is inherently noiser then a frigate but I still think they would try and build an AOR with some sort of countermeasures. They are the HVUs after all.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

As if an AOR can hide from anything.  I am sure the new girls will be mostly just as damn noisy as the old ones.

I think you'll be in for shock JJ: The new girls will be a lot noisier than the old ones. That was one advantage of steam turbines: nice and quiet compared to GT's and Diesels. If built to "merchant" standards, don't look for much in terms of engine room sound proofing.

And Ex-D: The AOR's have a sort of countermeasure: Its called an escort .

 

[jollyjacktar]

True but do you not practice Sonar Quiet states like we do on CPFs and 280s? I realize a tanker is inherently noiser then a frigate but I still think they would try and build an AOR with some sort of countermeasures. They are the HVUs after all.

No, not really.  She is a big, boisterous, noisy old woman.  Would be like putting the largish opera singer with the Wagner horned helm on her head in a field of wheat.  Not much room to hide in.  We did try a quiet state a time or two, but as I said.

 

[a_majoor]

Just a bit of clarification here; Prarie Masker is a noise reduction technology? If that is the case, and since the air lubrication system is based on similar principles, then it seems we get a twofer by adopting the system.

 

[Occam]

Just a bit of clarification here; Prarie Masker is a noise reduction technology? If that is the case, and since the air lubrication system is based on similar principles, then it seems we get a twofer by adopting the system.

Yes - Prairie Masker is for noise reduction.  I've also since been told that Prairie Masker, while still fitted on HMC Ships, is not used or maintained anymore because its upkeep is cost prohibitive (that info is in the public domain).

I also got the impression that the Mitsubishi fuel conservation technology moves a lot more air than Prairie Masker does. 

This is the best link I've found for info on Prairie Masker - http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/prairie.htm

 

[a_majoor]

Thanks for the link. Judging by the diagram, the bubble pattern in the air lubrication system is quite different from Prairie Masker, so there would not be a twofer effect.

Also interesting that Prarie Masker is no longer used on HMC ships due to upkeep costs. An interesting datum since the air lubrication system would be larger than Prarie Masker. It would be interesting to see if the cost saving from increased fuel economy would be offset by upkeep costs?

 

[RC]

It would be interesting to see if the cost saving from increased fuel economy would be offset by upkeep costs?

In my experience you often find some shady accounting with these types of systems.  For example, they might tell you how much fuel you saved on your mains by using the bubbler system, but forget to include the extra fuel used by the gensets that were powering the compressors that provide the bubbles.  Bubbler systems on icebreakers about break even on fuel consumption (but give slightly better ice performance).  I'd bet these ones might be just slightly better than breaking even and wouldn't make sense unless you were doing long, continuous hauls at constant speed.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Bump! I'm curious if this project has simply faded. August 30th marked 43 years since Protecteur was commissioned. 

 

[Occam]

Yes, the project is still ongoing.

 

[Kirkhill]

The response to those of us that proposed the purchase from the Brits of their "spare" Bay Class (RFA Largs Bay - currently serving as HMAS Choules):

The Prince of Darkness Strikes Again*

*Alternate Headline: Britain Demonstrates Its Continuing Standard Of Excellence In Electrical Systems

 

[Stoker]

The response to those of us that proposed the purchase from the Brits of their "spare" Bay Class (RFA Largs Bay - currently serving as HMAS Choules):

The Prince of Darkness Strikes Again*

*Alternate Headline: Britain Demonstrates Its Continuing Standard Of Excellence In Electrical Systems

It was Siemens transformer that malfunctioned which is a German company.  We have many Siemens transformers and electrical equipment of HMC ships, sometimes we have problems with them.