AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Snakedoc]

Is part of the issue a lack of experience on the part of all parties involved? 

I would think the aforementioned issues such as juniors afraid to tell their seniors that something is not going to work, the same on the vendors looking to bid on the projects end, hiring of an expert in over their heads etc. etc. would be common in shipbuilding/government projects around the world.

Yet it doesn't seem like other countries have the same fundamental problems that Canada has had with getting hulls on the water.

 

[RC]

That rather begs the question of how do you find an "expert consultant" that you can trust and that knows his stuff and that communicate clearly with the client.....

Well now that's the 20million dollar question.  I think they have done much better on subsequent contracts, having learned from the JSS procurement.  The SOIQ's have been better tailored and I think the fact that the very similar problems in the AOPs requirements were caught in the first few months and ironed out is evidence that they improved.

Is part of the issue a lack of experience on the part of all parties involved? 

I would think the aforementioned issues such as juniors afraid to tell their seniors that something is not going to work, the same on the vendors looking to bid on the projects end, hiring of an expert in over their heads etc. etc. would be common in shipbuilding/government projects around the world.

Yet it doesn't seem like other countries have the same fundamental problems that Canada has had with getting hulls on the water.

The experience exists out there, but the problem is very common.  There is a lot of money involved so, it's hard to find the real experience through all the lobbying and sales.  And often people just don't know how much they don't know. 

There are in fact dozens of procurement processes around the world that have the same type of problems as the JSS program.  Look at the Deepwater or LCS programs in the US.  The US is just more willing to throw money at the problem than admit defeat and start over than Canada is.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

My office reviews large infrastructure projects, the trend is towards design build, which means the proponent lays out the basic requirements of what the structure must accomplish ( i.e. load rating, lifespan, budget, clearance, etc) and then sit back and let industry suggest solutions to the problem. Classic example is the Port Mann bridge here in Vancouver, Province decides they want to twin the existing bridge, the entire assessment is based on this concept, but the winning bid is for a larger single bridge and the removal of the old. The Province had not thought it was possible within the budget (we will see who was right I suppose) but a lot of technology advance in the last few years has helped to control costs.

 

[mad dog 2020]

Navy considers modified German and Spanish designs for new supply ship

The Canadian Press

OTTAWA - The Canadian navy is looking for consultants to help adapt foreign designs for the replacement of its 40-year-old supply ships.

The request for professional services, issued by the Public Works Department this week, signals a major turn in the shipbuilding program, first begun by the Liberals seven years ago.

The consultants will be asked to assess the risks and cost of altering current German and Spanish military supply ship designs to Canadian needs.

They're also being told to be ready to assist federal officials with detailed drawings.

The proposal was issued the same week the Harper government deep-sixed co-operation with the British on the future design of new frigates, following an outcry from the Canadian shipbuilding industry.

A naval expert says the push to use either the Berlin or Cantabria-class designs marks a significant shift in Ottawa's long, tortured process to get new supply ships into the water.

Eric Lerhe, a retired commodore and fleet commander, says neither of the foreign ships have much capacity to transport army equipment and stores, something that was a major pillar of the original Canadian design

 

[MarkOttawa]

The use of a foreign design for a rather less capable than envisaged JSS is not itself news--bad reporting:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/17282/post-980449.html#msg980449

Mark
Ottawa

 

[MarkOttawa]

First post on the subject here--six months ago:
http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/17282/post-978257.html#msg978257

Mark
Ottawa

 

[The Bread Guy]

Navy considers modified German and Spanish designs for new supply ship

The Canadian Press

OTTAWA - The Canadian navy is looking for consultants to help adapt foreign designs for the replacement of its 40-year-old supply ships.

The request for professional services, issued by the Public Works Department this week, signals a major turn in the shipbuilding program, first begun by the Liberals seven years ago.

The consultants will be asked to assess the risks and cost of altering current German and Spanish military supply ship designs to Canadian needs ....

Here's the new MERX listing (compared to the one issued in October of last year):

.... Canada has a requirement to assess two NATO Navy ship designs to
determine their viability in relation to the Canadian Navy
operational requirements for naval fleet replenishment SHIPS:
    a.    the Berlin Class; and
    b.    the Cantabria Class

Canada intends to award two separate contracts, one to
ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems Canada Inc. (TKMSC) and the other to
Navantia, S.A. (Navantia) to conduct Risk Reduction Design
Studies (RRDS) for each design. This will enable Canada to
ascertain the feasibility and affordability of adapting these
designs to meet Canadian requirements. Canada is deploying a
team of government representatives to shipyards in Germany and
Spain to perform the RRDS and a follow-on Detailed Design
Activity (DDA).

Canada is seeking professional services of two qualified
personnel to provide consulting, ship production engineering and
translation services and support to the JSS PMO for the RRDS
activity at facilities in Germany and Spain and, if required, in
Canada, who are fluent in English and the native language of the
ship designer (one in German and one in Spanish).

This RFP may result in two Contracts. The Bidder may bid on one
or both requirements (Spain and/or Germany).

The initial term will be for a period of eight ( 8 ) months from
date of award of Contract. Support Services in Canada will be
required on an "as and when requested" basis, for up to ten
days (per person) starting on or around the beginning of May
2011. Core services in Germany and Spain will be required for a
period of six (6) months starting on or around the beginning of
June 2011, with an option to renew for up to six (6) additional
months to provide additional support for RRDS and/or for DDA ....

A bit more in the attached Statement of Work.

 

[MarkOttawa]

So in fact rather than JSSs they will be really AORs

naval fleet replenishment SHIPS

And lord knows when a shipbuilding contract will be signed and when a ship will eventually be in service.  On...and on...and...

This whole endeavour is becoming a scandal.  All because of the insistence by Canadian gov'ts (both stripes) first that ships be designed in Canada (now abandoned in this case, for the CCG, and one has heard for the A/OPS), and second that they be built here.

Cue "As Time Goes By"; play it Stephen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qujHKmU95o&feature=related

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Kalatzi]

well if it is a naming coantest . .

HMCS Better Very Late Than Never

HMCS Broken Procurement System

Canadian warship procurement has been scandalous for decades, IMHO,  at least as far back as the tribals.

The money spent on  could design could be far better used, unless we choose to export. Good luck with that.

The South Koreans seem to doing good things, eg FFX Frigates

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

So in fact rather than JSSs they will be really AORS:

Well if thats the case its been one of the smartest decisions regarding the JSS in a long time.

And lord knows when a shipbuilding contract will be signed and when a ship will eventually be in service.  On...and on...and...

This whole endeavour is becoming a scandal.  All because of the insistence by Canadian gov'ts (both stripes) first that ships be designed in Canada (now abandoned in this case, for the CCG, and one has heard for the A/OPS), and second that they be built here.

Cue "As Time Goes By"; play it Stephen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qujHKmU95o&feature=related

Mark
Ottawa
Mark
Ottawa

Well at least its still on the Government radar, I would be more concerned if there wasn't any mention at all.

The South Koreans seem to doing good things, eg FFX Frigates

Lets wait for the class goes into service before applauding the South Koreans as the frigate maybe a dismal failure.

 

[FSTO]

Maybe our procurement process is so tortured because we have invented this need to make everyone happy. Quebec, the west, Atlantic provinces, first nations, environment, the list goes on and on. Just once I wish the government would have the balls to tell the special interest groups to bugger off, we are going to get a platform that is what we want, quickly and at the best price. We should also cut about 1/3 of the oversight requirements that satisfy nobody but the blood sucking vampires at Treasury Board. Maybe we could cut about 10 years from the 15 to 20 year process that we have now.

 

[Infanteer]

Maybe our procurement process is so tortured because we have invented this need to make everyone but the Navy happy. Quebec, the west, Atlantic provinces, first nations, environment, the list goes on and on.

Fixed that for you....

 

[Kalatzi]

Well if thats the case its been one of the smartest decisions regarding the JSS in a long time.

Well at least its still on the Government radar, I would be more concerned if there wasn't any mention at all.
Lets wait for the class goes into service before applauding the South Koreans as the frigate maybe a dismal failure.

 

[Kalatzi]

re: my previous

The comment on waiting to see if the south korean class was a success was a good one.

We no longer design our own combat aircraft

We no longer design our own combat vehicles - witness the ram or the bobcat

A local design could still be a dud.

I also encountered another thread that theres hope for the surface combatant being a partnership, pun.

 

[Dissident]

Way out of my lane: the Berlin class looks interesting. Is it big enough? Wiki shows it is 4000tons lighter than the Protecteur.

 

[FSTO]

Fixed that for you....

:nod:

 

[Haletown]

Well I guess we should be thankful that Bombardier doesn't produce a long in the tooth 4th generation fighter aircraft that they would be flogging to the Air Force instead of getting a truly modern aircraft.

It would make where/how to get ships look easy.

I can hear the howls from the Bloc from here.

 

[Infanteer]

Well I guess we should be thankful that Bombardier doesn't produce a long in the tooth 4th generation fighter aircraft that they would be flogging to the Air Force instead of getting a truly modern aircraft.

It would make where/how to get ships look easy.

I can hear the howls from the Bloc from here.

Actually - wait for it.  With all the political howling over the F-35, I wouldn't be surprised if, 25 years from now, we finally replace the CF-118s with a Bombardier passenger plane (with engines built by Bell) with weapons pods strapped to the wings....

 

[Haletown]

That is a scary thought but the PBO report released today will give lots of bluster points for the media and opposition to use.

I have downloaded a copy and a quick read says it has a most unique way of estimating future costs based on aircraft weight in Kilos and uses a 30 year period rather than the 20 years . . .  good way to get a big number & front page headlines !!

 

[The Bread Guy]

This from the Halifax Chronicle-Herald, shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.

Canada should not adapt foreign designs to replace its 40-year-old supply ships, says the man who represents over 1,000 workers at Halifax Shipyard.

The navy is looking for consultants to assess the risks and cost of altering current German and Spanish military supply-ship designs to Canadian needs. They are also being told to be ready to assist federal officials with detailed drawings.

"No matter what way you slice the pie, its Canadian tax dollars leaving Canada to go to another country to help them out in an economic crisis when we’re in our own," Jamie Vaslet of the CAW/Marine Workers Federation, said Thursday.

"Made in Canada is not a bad name, so designed in Canada is not a bad name, either. We designed and built some of, if not the best, world-class frigates."

If the supply ships are designed in another country, intellectual rights accompany that design, Vaslet said. He pointed to HMCS Chicoutimi, one of the Canadian navy’s British-built submarines, which was sidelined by a fatal fire in 2004.

"When the Chicoutimi was in the Halifax Shipyard, we could have gone to Canadian Tire and bought a nut and bolt to do a job on that submarine for $1.29 and we paid $1,500 taxpayers’ dollars for it to come three weeks later from Britain," Vaslet said.

"Where in anybody’s logical mind does that make sense? And why would we want to get into the same thing again when we’re going to build supply ships?"

The Harper government recently nixed a co-operative effort with the British on the design of new frigates after an outcry from the shipbuilding industry.

"At the same time that they’re saying that, they’re going to another country for the design on a supply ship, so it’s a shell game that the Tories are playing," Vaslet said.

Three joint support ships, announced as part of the 2004 budget and confirmed by the Conservatives when they took power in 2006, have been the subject of discussions, drawings and revisions as naval planners struggled to stay within the $2.9-billion budget.

The government said it wanted a ship that could resupply warships, haul army equipment and act as a floating hospital or command post when necessary.

The Conservatives hit the reset button on the program in the summer of 2008, sending everyone back to the drawing board, because shipyard bids exceeded what had been budgeted.