AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[CombatDoc]

Why did I start reading the comments?  :facepalm:

I did it so that I could read strongly-held opinions from the poorly informed. ;D

 

[q_1966]

So are the new Joint Support Ships going to have a fuel replenishment capability, the first plans that got shot down by parliament didn't.

 

[Pat in Halifax]

Someone with 'the power (aka Mod). you may want to merge this with:
http://forums.navy.ca/forums/threads/17282.0.html
...Oh my; I have become one of 'them'!

That said, I had a pretty interesting conv with someone this morning about this...though informal, I saw it as a priveledged platform but it will be interesting to see if some of what he said comes out in the wash.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Someone with 'the power (aka Mod). you may want to merge this with:
http://forums.navy.ca/forums/threads/17282.0.html
...Oh my; I have become one of 'them'!

Not at all - ask and you shall receive.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[Kirkhill]

With respect to Canadian design and supply:

Damen Shipyards, previously Royal Scheldt, supplied the design for their STAN 4207 to Irving shipyards who built it as the MSPV for the Coast Guard.

Perhaps Damen could be induced to do the same for Washington Marine and supply them the plans for the Karel Doorman.

It is either a Dutch ship or a German ship we are looking at.  The Spanish ships are Dutch designs as well.

Interesting to see that Flensburger has a new design they are touting as a JSS as well.  The Bridge is well forward, unlike the Berlin class oilers, and the fantail is extended into a proper flight deck.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

The problem remains that we want a Billion dollars of capability...but only want to spend half that.  It is going to be tough to bridge that gap...

 

[FutureSailor]

The problem remains that we want a Billion dollars of capability...but only want to spend half that.  It is going to be tough to bridge that gap...

Wouldn't it be nice if we didn't have to bridge that gap.. :-\

I could give a million reasons why we shouldn't half-ass the job, but it'd be pointless.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The problem remains that we want a Billion dollars of capability...but only want to spend half that.  It is going to be tough to bridge that gap...

Here is Combat proven design that will fit our budget.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/US_T2_WW2_tanker_Hat_Creek.JPG

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Seems China has a fairly new JSS design

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/photo/2013-02/20/c_132181473.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuchi_%28Qiandaohu%29_class

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I think you are misreading the caption.

As the Chinese call their navy the People's Liberation Army's Navy, they call their seaman "troops". The 730 "troops" are not soldiers carried by the AOR (Which is all that the Weishanhou is), but rather the total number of "seaman" deployed as part of the the three ships flotilla.

So its not a JSS, and looking the characteristics over in your second link (Wiki), we can see that it is a design that is actually close to our current AOR's design.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

You are correct, my bad.

 

[AlexanderM]

I think it is absolutely ludicrous that they are suggesting around 4 billion to replace the supply ships.  No way a Berlin Class costs 2 billion each and that's all we need. 

 

[Lineman]

Brochure from BMT re: Aegir
http://www.bmtdsl.co.uk/media/1057880/BMTDSL-Aegir-Brochure.pdf

 

[Dissident]

How much?

 

[Lineman]

http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2010/02/fdr-maritime-at-sea-replenishment/

This site quotes 5 Aegir 18 for 320 million pounds which converts roughly to 500 million Canadian for just the vessels. I haven't found any other sites that mention price.

 

[Kirkhill]

Not sure how this Feb 2013 update got by us.

Backgrounder from NSPS on JSS

Project Milestone Description Estimated Date
Design Selection Selection of an affordable JSS that demonstrates best value to Canada Spring 2013
Production Design and Engineering To mature the selected design to a production ready state 2014
Build Contract To build and deliver the JSS 2015/2016
IOC Initial Operational Capability of the first JSS 2018
FOC Full operational capability with two JSS 2019

Estimated Life-Cycle Costs
Total indicative cost for two ships (incl. GST) $2.6B
In-Service Support (30 yrs) $1.9B
Personnel & Operating Costs (30 yrs) $2.6B
TOTAL $7.1B


Commentary from Redensign - I can't say it any better.


The only vessel I can think of that would cost close to 1.3 BCAD apiece are San Antonios and they have zero fleet support capability.


2.6 BCAD would buy 3 Doormans and 4 MARS AORs and leave change in the pocket.

None of the European Big Ship contenders (Berlin, Cantabria, AEGIRS, Mistral, Juan Carlos, Canberra, Doorman, de Witt, Rotterdam, Bay Class) none of them come close to 1.3 BCAD per copy. 

The only nation that spends those kind of dollars on ships is the US.

American models.  American results.


Edit to add:

2012 Power Point from Seaspan showing Ice Breaker, OOSV, OFSVs and JSS.  The JSS image shown seems to be the AEGIR-26 from BMT.

Total Work Package Estimate from SeaSpan: 3 BCAD for the complete suite of ships (Icebreaker and Coast Guard Vessels Included) vs 2.6 allocated for just the JSS, vs 4.1 estimate from PBO for just two JSS.

Edit: To modify the AEGIR link

 

[Acer Syrup]

Decision made. Waiting for minister announcement.

 

[MilEME09]

The AEGIR-26 seems capable however I'm worried not enough budget is allocated for them and things may be cut

 

[CougarKing]

A major update that also mentions the "Diefenbreaker"  :

National Post link

OTTAWA — The head of the Royal Canadian Navy delivered a poignant reminder Wednesday that the fate of Canada’s military is in industry’s hands as he announced that a design for new resupply ships has been chosen.

The relationship between National Defence and defence companies has been turbulent recently following problems with a number of high-profile procurement projects, including the F-35 stealth fighter, armoured vehicles for the army and search-and-rescue aircraft.

Some of these issues have originated within National Defence and other federal departments, others have been industry’s fault. The result, however, has been the same: delays, cost overruns, and project cancellations or resets.

“If we are to collectively succeed, it will be because we enter into this great enterprise in a genuine spirit of strategic trust and co-operation, of frank and honest dialogue and respect,” he said.

Maddison appealed to industry representatives to look beyond their own interests and do the right thing for the country and Canada’s men and women in uniform.

“The Royal Canadian Navy has placed its future in a very real way into your hands,” he said. “The same applies to the Canadian Armed Forces as a whole.”

He said this is particularly true for the government’s $35-billion national shipbuilding plan, which is emerging as one of the most complex military procurements in Canadian military history.

Maddison, who retires in just over three weeks, said the three major naval projects — new armed Arctic patrol ships; replacements for the navy’s aging destroyers and frigates; and new resupply vessels — are proceeding.

In particular, he revealed that a design had been chosen for the resupply vessels, also called joint support ships, in late April following an in-depth comparison between two options “based on capability, cost and risk.”

So the sequencing decision that’s going to be made is, you know, is JSS built first or is the polar (icebreaker) built first
The joint support ships were the subject of a Parliamentary Budget Officer’s report at the end of February, which warned the project could cost more than $1 billion more than the government had budgeted. The government refuted the PBO’s findings.

Maddison would not reveal what design had been selected for the vessels, nor could he say when the joint support ships will be built thanks to a scheduling conflict with the Coast Guard’s new polar icebreaker, the CCGS John G. Diefenbaker.

The joint support ships are desperately needed to replace the navy’s two 45-year-old resupply vessels, which were supposed to have been retired in 2012 and have become environmentally unsound and prohibitively expensive to maintain.

But they are expected to be ready for construction at the same time in 2017 as the Canadian Coast Guard’s new polar-class icebreaker, the CCGS John G. Diefenbaker, and the Vancouver shipyard responsible for both projects can only handle one project at a time.

Maddison said there is an “urgent” need to replace both the resupply ships and Coast Guard’s existing heavy icebreaker, the 40-year-old CCGS Louis St-Laurent.

“So the sequencing decision that’s going to be made is, you know, is JSS built first or is the polar (icebreaker) built first,” he said. “So we’ll see how that goes.”

The navy commander could not say whether the navy would still be able to afford the new joint support ship design that had been chosen if construction was delayed in favour of the icebreaker.

He also warned that he did not see the navy’s existing resupply vessels lasting past the end of this decade, though he was confident National Defence would be able to “find a way to innovatively mitigate any capability gap that opens.”

 

[Canadian.Trucker]

I'm sure I'm not the only one watching all of this with a good amount of worry on if the project will follow through on the original line of intent.  Cost overruns and expensive plans and designs for these ships is not what we need, affordable and effective is.