Another Israel/Palestine debate that started as something else - Carpe Diem

[48Highlander]

Well I'm glad we got that sorted out.  I didn't thing you were picking sides; everything I've seen from you in past threads has indicated that you're impartial when it comes to the Palestine-Israel situation.  I just wanted to point out that there's probably very few palestinians who can say the same.

 

[Dare]

No, I'm not.

Sorry, but if you expect me to believe that every Palestinian has dedicated themselves to immolating the Jewish State, then you better try harder to convince me then a little cheap shot at Che.  I guess they are all rabid fundamentalists as well, aren't they?  :

Alright, Palestinian public opinion then.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/arabs/palpo.html

Wrong Intifada - I was referring to the original one in 1987, not the Al-Aqsa Intifada.

Alright, all intifadas then.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf19.html
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_intifada_nature.php

I don't dispute much of the info in the link - but to assume that it is "All the Palestinian's Fault" is being pretty biased.  I said Col. Hammes has presented the best overview to date:

Biased indeed. I never claimed impartiality.

"Similarly, if Likud were to achieve their goal of annexation of key parts of the occupied territories, they had to convince the Israeli people that the Palestinians could never be trusted.  They had to convince them that despite Likud's failed policy of invading Lebanon and their failed policy in dealing with Hamas in South Lebanon, Likud still had the correct vision of the future.  In short, the right-wing party had to portray the Palestinians as seeking the annihilation of Israel; that "land for peace" was a false and dangerous dream.  They had to return Israeli opinion to that which existed before Intifada I."

As I said, a pox on both their houses....

There is a reasion "land for peace" is a false and dangerous dream. Perhaps you can recall they already tried that with Egypt and the Sinai with very limited success.

Well, I place much more faith in Abbas to turn things around then I do in Arafat - the fact that he walked out on the offer Barak gave him indicates that he was only interested in conflict - I remain convinced that he was the biggest roadblock to a solution.

The fact you place more in Abbas has me wondering as they are only different in tactics.

Sure, Abbas may have skeletons in the closet - but who in the region doesn't?  I'm sure we were all shocked when Sharon, invader of Lebanon and architect of the colonial expansion into the Occupied Terrorities, would pull an about face, leave the hardliners of the Likud in the dust, and unilaterally attempt to move towards a resolution by evacuating the Settlements - I'm sure Abbas is capable of doing the same.

Abbas has more than "skeletons". His "political party" Fatah, is a terrorist group. His words have spoken volumes as to the kind of man he is and the kind he pretends to be. Sharons strategy of evacuating some settlements in Gaza is not as much of an about face as you might think it is. It is a concession to the U.S.

I am a realist as well, but I'm not going to sit in the corner and paint "terrorist" with my big brush.  Here's an idea, instead of being Mr Pessimist and basically deriding everybody who doesn't see things at your level as a terrorist sympathiser, why don't you tell us what needs to be done.

I don't recall deriding you as a terrorist sympathiser, Infanteer, nor do I appreciate your tone. I respect you. I simply disagree with your opinion. As far as I'm concerned, it's not far fetch to call a man who praises suicide bombers, is a member of a terrorist group and who denies the holocaust, a Bad Guy. I think it's fair game. As for being a Pessimist. I'm actually very much an optimist. I believe Sharon is doing exactly what needs to be done. I also believe that western grand strategies are making positive effect. Withdrawing from Gaza, solidifying parts of the West bank and building a giant wall is exactly what needs to be done.

http://www.pmw.org.il/
Abbas could put a stop to this... if he wanted.

 

[48Highlander]

As far as I'm concerned, it's not far fetch to call a man who praises suicide bombers, is a member of a terrorist group and who denies the holocaust, a Bad Guy. I think it's fair game. As for being a Pessimist. I'm actually very much an optimist. I believe Sharon is doing exactly what needs to be done. I also believe that western grand strategies are making positive effect. Withdrawing from Gaza, solidifying parts of the West bank and building a giant wall is exactly what needs to be done.

I can agree with all of that, however, at this point I don't think it really matters wether the leader of the Palestinian "state" is a "bad guy".  Rather, the question is how reasonable he's willing to be.  I don't care if Abas thinks that the entire holocaust was faked, and that Iraels intends to own the whole world.  If he's willing to negotiate - and I mean REALLY negotiaite, not Arafats version of it - then he's a hell of a lot better than anything we've had so far.  Change in that region isn't going to happen overnight - one small miracle at a time is all we can hope for.

 

[Infanteer]

Well I'm glad we got that sorted out.   I didn't thing you were picking sides; everything I've seen from you in past threads has indicated that you're impartial when it comes to the Palestine-Israel situation.

Hey, when it comes to this specific situation, I guess that is a compliment - thanks! 

Alright, Palestinian public opinion then.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/arabs/palpo.html

Alright, all intifadas then.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf19.html
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_intifada_nature.php

Interesting source.  As I've said, Col Hammes, with over 2 decades of military experience and acclaimed scholarship in the field of insurgency warfare, presents a different view - I'm inclined to take it (from his published book) over an internet "Fact List" - I guess that's my pick and my fault if it is proven false; c'est la vie.

There is a reasion "land for peace" is a false and dangerous dream. Perhaps you can recall they already tried that with Egypt and the Sinai with very limited success.

Apples and Oranges - is Palestine going to lumber over the border with tanks?

The fact you place more in Abbas has me wondering as they are only different in tactics.

Abbas has more than "skeletons". His "political party" Fatah, is a terrorist group. His words have spoken volumes as to the kind of man he is and the kind he pretends to be.

Well, you have to look somewhere - and I sure ain't waiting for Jesus to return to Earth and sort it out.

Sharons strategy of evacuating some settlements in Gaza is not as much of an about face as you might think it is.  It is a concession to the U.S.

I'd believe that - I'm pretty sure (or at least I hope) that some in the US have figured out that solving the Palestinian/Israeli issue is a key component to undermining the Islamic Insurgeny.

As far as I'm concerned, it's not far fetch to call a man who praises suicide bombers, is a member of a terrorist group and who denies the holocaust, a Bad Guy. I think it's fair game.

Put yourself in the shoes of a Palestinian looking at the Likud party and some of the statements the hardliners there have made - two sides to every story.

I'm actually very much an optimist. I believe Sharon is doing exactly what needs to be done. I also believe that western grand strategies are making positive effect. Withdrawing from Gaza, solidifying parts of the West bank and building a giant wall is exactly what needs to be done.

Well, we may disagree on the background, but at least we agree on the solution.  I guess it is like a Ref stepping between the fight at the next Vancouver Canucks/Colorado Avalanche game....

I can agree with all of that, however, at this point I don't think it really matters wether the leader of the Palestinian "state" is a "bad guy".   Rather, the question is how reasonable he's willing to be.   I don't care if Abas thinks that the entire holocaust was faked, and that Iraels intends to own the whole world.   If he's willing to negotiate - and I mean REALLY negotiaite, not Arafats version of it - then he's a hell of a lot better than anything we've had so far.   Change in that region isn't going to happen overnight - one small miracle at a time is all we can hope for.

+1 from me.

 

[Dare]

I can agree with all of that, however, at this point I don't think it really matters wether the leader of the Palestinian "state" is a "bad guy".  Rather, the question is how reasonable he's willing to be.  I don't care if Abas thinks that the entire holocaust was faked, and that Iraels intends to own the whole world.  If he's willing to negotiate - and I mean REALLY negotiaite, not Arafats version of it - then he's a heck of a lot better than anything we've had so far.  Change in that region isn't going to happen overnight - one small miracle at a time is all we can hope for.

I agree with your last sentence.
Reasonable in actuality or in perception? That's the key point. What do you suppose he meant by this statement "the little jihad has ended, and now the big jihad's beginning." Or how about "cracking down on Hamas, Jihad, and the Palestinian organizations is not an option at all"? Abbas still supports the "right of return". What have we properly negotiated with him without the threat of force? What concessions have been made? I'm not talking about the much praised "crack down" on terrorists that he promises. Where are the arrests?

http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/1/low/world/middle_east/4497359.stm

Take note, the militants are members of *his* terrorist group. I guess that's a Palestinian "crack down"? Or is it an example of "moderation"?

 

[48Highlander]

I agree with your last sentence.
Reasonable in actuality or in perception? That's the key point. What do you suppose he meant by this statement "the little jihad has ended, and now the big jihad's beginning." Or how about "cracking down on Hamas, Jihad, and the Palestinian organizations is not an option at all"? Abbas still supports the "right of return". What have we properly negotiated with him without the threat of force? What concessions have been made? I'm not talking about the much praised "crack down" on terrorists that he promises. Where are the arrests?

http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/1/low/world/middle_east/4497359.stm

Take note, the militants are members of *his* terrorist group. I guess that's a Palestinian "crack down"? Or is it an example of "moderation"?

I'm not going to agree or disagree with you.  It's too early to make any judgements on Abas.  If you have a problem with what he's saying...well, look at the liberals and their "we promise, no more tax raises".  The man is in a very dificult position.  He can't alienate his own people, otherwise he's doomed.  On the other hand, I think he's intelligent enough to realize that continuing Arafats policies will be suicide for his state.  I'm waiting to see what his actions are, rather than his words.

 

[winchable]

Ah hell lets hang him now and put in a wal-mart.

Much like the US invasion of Iraq, Abass's legacy will best be judged by history and as such it is impossible for us to condemn or applaude him for anything right now.
The best any of us can do is go on the assumption that the majority of world leaders have taken and that is that he wants peace as much as any Israeli does.

And before we cast any judgement on the man he's in far more difficult position than most politicians are, as 48 put it best:

The man is in a very dificult position.  He can't alienate his own people, otherwise he's doomed.  On the other hand, I think he's intelligent enough to realize that continuing Arafats policies will be suicide for his state. 

 

[Dare]

Hey, when it comes to this specific situation, I guess that is a compliment - thanks! 

Interesting source.  As I've said, Col Hammes, with over 2 decades of military experience and acclaimed scholarship in the field of insurgency warfare, presents a different view - I'm inclined to take it (from his published book) over an internet "Fact List" - I guess that's my pick and my fault if it is proven false; c'est la vie.

I'm afraid I don't know who Col Hammes is but I do believe that the two lists provided are sourced.

Apples and Oranges - is Palestine going to lumber over the border with tanks?

Well that is another misconception, in that this is Palestine vs Israel. It is actually the greater middle east vs Israel. The Sinai (twice as large as current day Israel, yet part of traditional Israel proper) was given to Egypt for "peace". Of course, Egypt only accepted it as a "cease-fire", and have been found many times to be helping the insurgency with tunneled weaponry and supplies. So when people say "land grab" in relation to Israel, it disregards some major facts. In order to properly understand this conflict we have to think broader than just country and religion.

Well, you have to look somewhere - and I sure ain't waiting for Jesus to return to Earth and sort it out.

While I am not awaiting celestial omniscients to fix things, I also am not going to get my hopes up on one man.

I'd believe that - I'm pretty sure (or at least I hope) that some in the US have figured out that solving the Palestinian/Israeli issue is a key component to undermining the Islamic Insurgeny.

Of course, many know this conflict is a major source of propaghanda for terrorists worldwide, unfortunately, I think people put too much stock into it as being the key to solving other conflicts. The West is indeed quite active, on both sides of the issue, in the region as are many world wide.

Put yourself in the shoes of a Palestinian looking at the Likud party and some of the statements the hardliners there have made - two sides to every story.

I am afraid I still can't wrap my head around accepting suicide bombings targetting innocent civilians. Even in a geostrategic sense, it's bad policy. If I was a Palestinian, I would support complete disengagement from Israel and disarm. Once that is done, Israel would not have a leg to stand on in any sense of expansion nor world support. And frankly, I believe a large volume of Israelies would support that and disengage as well. There would be no support in the IDF for raking down pacifists. I believe most anti-Arab or anti-Muslim sentements in Israel are due to the actions of the Palestinians and are not out of contempt but rather despair in the conclusion that many can see no other alternative than genocide of one side or the other. I certainly do not believe that, but we must foster a more conclusively moderate Palestine and not prop up someone who is just "moderate.. for Palestine". Israel is a democracy, and a democracy faced with no (visible) threat tends to organicly recoil and pacify itself. There are already protesters inside the current day IDF. If Israel is presented with no danger, it would not commit genocide against the Palestinians. It's not democratically feasable. It's only the Palestinian Authority that hold back any progress towards peace.

 

[Dare]

I'm not going to agree or disagree with you.  It's too early to make any judgements on Abas.  If you have a problem with what he's saying...well, look at the liberals and their "we promise, no more tax raises".  The man is in a very dificult position.  He can't alienate his own people, otherwise he's doomed.  On the other hand, I think he's intelligent enough to realize that continuing Arafats policies will be suicide for his state.  I'm waiting to see what his actions are, rather than his words.

I'll agree with the sentement that Abbas is in a difficult place, but 2 arrests.. from his own group? I think Abbas should not only be judged for his actions but also his visible lack of action. I do not think it is too soon to judge him, as on that front, he seems quite consistant. He wants Israeli arrested terrorists set free. It's â Å“confidence buildingâ ?. Under pressure they have released many hundreds. Can you imagine being in a war and being asked to release your prisoners to "build confidence" with the one who sent them in the first place? I searched for a while to find anymore arrests than that but it's interesting there are so many articles talking about Abbas "cracking down" and "ordering arrests", yet just the one of him actually arresting any terrorists. Of course, all of the other hits mentioning the arresting of Palestininan terrorists have the Israeli's doing the arresting.

http://www.yoni4knesset.com/mt/archives/000370.html

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

The man is in a very dificult position.  He can't alienate his own people, otherwise he's doomed.  On the other hand, I think he's intelligent enough to realize that continuing Arafats policies will be suicide for his state.

  It's popular sentiment that is driving hatred of Israel, not a few wackos!

I'm waiting to see what his actions are, rather than his words.

There needs to be a fundamental change in how Palestinians view Israel: we haven't really seen it happen so far ...

 

[Polish Possy]

I saw a documentary about the Gaza strip And you would figure that the people that hate each other would eventually die and a new generation would be born with this conflicts as old stories but It seems that both sides (although it focused on the Palestinians  more ) showed that the parents teach the kids hatered for each other they interviewed a family and every the 4 year old daughter said she would want to kill Israelis with a A-Kalashnikov I was surprised at her age she knew what a AK was and the proper name they also showed young teen boys playing with toy guns called attack the Israeli convoy again I was shocked but the thing that was horrible was one of the young boys already had his  suicide letter for his family after he blows him self up. I believe that parents are part of fuel of hatered they teach the kids to fight insed of forgetting old conflicts


....What was the Original topic ?

 

[1feral1]

I have been sitting back and reading the posts since I posted when this thread was in its early stages.

You know, when mothers   (At Gaza a recent Australian 60 Minutes programme) dress their toddler aged kids up in toy explosive belts and AK47 rifles (actually praising that they want these kids when they get older to kill themselves to kill Jews), then to grow up and be martyrs, by strapping on real HE, and then to walk into a shopping centre or board a bus, something SERIOUSLY has to be wrong, and quite frankly I don't want anyone with this mentality in my neighbourhood, yet alone in my country.

Excercising one's democratic rights is one thing, but when this changes into outright plans of violence (PLO and related cowardly criminal murdering outlawed gangs) or other kinds of disruption with an agenda backed by pure unadulterated hatred, thats a complete different story.

I would be sitting back and seeing what plans these transplanted Palestinians have up their sleeves. In short I trust them as about as far as I can spit. Sorry, but thats just the reality of today. Any of them who go one step beyond, should be deported outright.

I have seen PLO demonstrations first hand, and not in the ME either, right in Sydney, and they caused well over a million dollars damage to inner city cafes and businesses, etc. This was to be a peaceful anti-Israeli rally.

Go figure? Their inbread milddle east hatred backed by sheer violence was transplanted into Sydney, and the hate packed behind it was unreal, and quite diffucult for mainstream Aussies to comprehend, and did nothing but create more bad feelings between us and them.

Don't get me wrong, ther is an 'us' and 'them', and they are the ones who created this problem. The idea of immigrants coming here, adopting the culture and lifestyle of Australia is long gone. Seems these days the only thing established has been satellite countries from whence they came. Nothing more, with the exception of bringing in all that excess baggage of hatred towards others.

They can all take their Zam-Zam colas and shove them up their arses.

No race cards here, and no political correctness either. If these people want to wash their centuries old dirty laundry, go HOME and do it. I am sick of the whole lot causing problems.

Not in my country, and I am sure my beloved Canada is having the same problems, if not it will be soon enough.

For the ones that tow the line and live a life of happinesss, adopting their new country (of course never forgetting where they come from) , good on ya's, but sadly I think this is a small number.

Another dose of the reality tablet, and if anyone does not like it, just put your head in the sand, and it will go away.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[Kat Stevens]

Pretty much where I was headed Wes, but you nailed it down better than I did.

CHIMO,  Kat

 

[P-Free]

I agree with Wes as well.

A society that allows proud mothers to dress their children up in fake explosives and carry plastic guns and then sends young men and women off to blows themselves into bits has more wrong with it than it's neighbors.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
A society

...to quote Infanteer yesterday, painting a broad brush, aren't we?
Just who do you think gets shown on those images?  I guess "Jerry Springer type" shows give a good cross section of North Americans also. :

 

[Britney Spears]

We (and Australia too) should do what the Israelis do and introduce mandatory military service as part of the immigration proccess. Nothing like 6 month of being shot at in the West Bank to prove one's loyalty to the new country.  ;D

 

[Britney Spears]

You need only go to a city high school these days to see this (albeit on a smaller scale). "Wheres my Somali brothers, lets go fight those white boys". Or "F-Israel and F the Jews, they ruining my country and killing my people" (Palestinian kid who was born here in Canada). "I hate this country, you and your white christian values, I'm only here because its better living for my people, we'll take over someday". Or my personal favorite after Sept. 11th "yeah, we got those american bastar*s good, I hope they all burn in heck for a thousand years, lets get the jews and this country next".

Well, to be fair, high schoolers/teenagers are one step below pondscum in EVERY civilized country, so that's pretty much par for the course.

 

[jmacleod]

Pleased to see the IDF Air Force invited to Cold Lake, but IAF aircraft have been in Canada before.
We had IAF "KFIR's" (Lions) at the well known Shearwater International Air Show some years
back - they came from USN Air Station Mirimar CA, and were flying as the "enemy" in the Top
Gun program. Trip was arranged courtesy of the Northrop Corporation, Aircraft Group, Hawthorne
CA, which provided technical support for the Northrop F-5's flying in Top Gun, simulating a variety
of Soviet fighters of the era, and the IDF aircraft. I don't care about the attempt to make foreign
political statement by the Palestinian focus group in Canada (courtesy of the CBC) - what exactly
do they contribute to Canada? - the F-16's will put on quite a show I would think, and welcome
from us, we need closer links with Israel in any event. MacLeod

 

[MysticLies]

  There needs to be a fundamental change in how Palestinians view Israel: we haven't really seen it happen so far ...

correction: There needs to be a fundamental change in how Palestinians view Israel, and how Israelis view Palestine: we haven't really seen it happen so far

 

[Rebel_RN]

I think it's great that they were invited. What I find utterly nauseating is the fact that Immigrations allows the different cultures to come to Canada and create a mini-where ever they were from in the first place. I have no problems with someone remembering where they came from but it seems to me that once on Canadian soil they ( not all mind you ) tend to forget why they left. When emigrating to a western culture there are some western ideals that I feel should be imposed. maybe I'm way out in left field here but I don't want centuries old drama, issues, problems,and fighting being readily flaunted in my face or felt as though i am inconsiderate because i don't feel that I should have to Kow tow to demands or opinions such as the one made about Cold Lake, and I don't feel that my Country should have to either. There is a huge difference between freedom of speech and propagating what could be future violence and a very fine line between the two and in my,what I'm sure is politically incorrect, opinion I feel that the line is crossed all too frequently. Continued ignorance breeds continued problems and perhaps Canada should take a long hard look at what is sometimes going on right under it's nose.

Note: I don't intend for this to be as generalized as it may seem, there are the good and bad of every situation, country, society and race.
This is just my personal opinion.