Another Israel/Palestine debate that started as something else - Carpe Diem

[Infanteer]

So, what are we arguing about now?

 

[Kat Stevens]

It's a conspiracy... I tip a few (okay, quite a few) whiskey's, and a near and dear topic pops up...

Kat

 

[48Highlander]

Alright, I'm deffinitely way too sober to figure out what the hell is going on here, so, if this thread isn't going to get locked, I'm gonna go find my bottle of whiskey.

 

[Kat Stevens]

It all boils down to this: Our base, our airspace, our fuel and rations.  Who gives a flying rodents rectum what Palestine, or anyone else for that matter, has to say about it?

Kat

 

[Infanteer]

Alright, if you've noticed that your post has been taken down, that's because you're goofing off and wasting bandwidth - take it to the PM's.

I don't want to lock it because half the membership is browsing it and may have something to add.  If you're going to screw around on this thread, we'll just remove it.

Infanteer

 

[mover1]

well I was removed. You know to go Back on the topic, there was a controversy when the South Africans came to maple flag too

 

[Dare]

And you need to A)Put aside any personal problems you have with my beliefs or choice of screen name like an adult and not sneak your little passive agressive jabs into every post responding to me  and B) Be less selective when choosing which protests you look at.

The majority of Palestinians want peace unfortunately the area is not as homogenus as we'd like to believe so a number of factors affect the realisation of said peace.
The statement that "Palestinians do not want peace:they want the Jew dead." holds as much water as "The Majority of Cubans are good socialists and would put the needs of the people before their own needs."

We'll see how much water your position holds considering those "peaceful Palestinians" democratically elect known terrorists and terrorist supporters.

 

[Cloud Cover]

We'll see how much water your position holds considering those "peaceful Palestinians" democratically elect known terrorists and terrorist supporters.

Which known terrorists and terrorist supporters are you alluding to?

 

[Infanteer]

We'll see how much water your position holds considering those "peaceful Palestinians" democratically elect known terrorists and terrorist supporters.

You're painting with a broad brush again - something you've proven to be quite good at.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Abbas.html

Looks like a terrorist to me.... :

As I said, look at the first Intifada and tell me that those folks, who stripped their fellow Palestinians of rifles and molotov cocktails, were terrorists bent on destroying Israel.

 

[Gramps]

Regardless of who elects who, both sides have blood on their hands. Nobody is innocent in either government in this argument.

 

[Infanteer]

Regardless of who elects who, both sides have blood on their hands. Nobody is innocent in either government in this argument.

Yup.

 

[48Highlander]

Regardless of who elects who, both sides have blood on their hands. Nobody is innocent in either government in this argument.

Absolutely.  Which is why the comment about letting go of ancient history is bang on.  Right now Israel is working on a unilateral solution to the problem.  The Palestines have a choice to make:  either negotiate and work out a plan which is acceptable to both sides, or sit by and let Israel do it their way.  The next few years are going to change everything.

Now can we get back to the original topic?

 

[Kat Stevens]

Well, in order to be fair, next year we should invite the palestinians to scrape up enough gas money for the 3 or 4 Sopwith Camels they can duct tape together, and come on over.    :warstory:

 

[Dare]

You're painting with a broad brush again - something you've proven to be quite good at.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Abbas.html

Looks like a terrorist to me.... :

As I said, look at the first Intifada and tell me that those folks, who stripped their fellow Palestinians of rifles and molotov cocktails, were terrorists bent on destroying Israel.

I honestly can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.
I'll continue under the presumtion you are not.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/joelmowbray/jm20050404.shtml
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42598
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/shibli_plf.html

Arafat in more appealing packaging is still Arafat.

As for your continued comments about the Intifada, let's have a look into that using the site you quoted above.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf19a.html

But maybe I'm painting with too broad a brush. Perhaps I should be hopeful that Abbas is what everyone says he is. Unfortunately, I'm a realist.

EDIT: A few more perspectives on Abbas:

http://www.muslimworldtoday.com/change21.htm
http://web.israelinsider.com/Views/4772.htm

 

[Dare]

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/shibli_plf.html

I apologize, wrong Mahmoud Abbas here.

 

[Infanteer]

I honestly can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.
I'll continue under the presumtion you are not.

No, I'm not.

Sorry, but if you expect me to believe that every Palestinian has dedicated themselves to immolating the Jewish State, then you better try harder to convince me then a little cheap shot at Che.   I guess they are all rabid fundamentalists as well, aren't they?   :

As for your continued comments about the Intifada, let's have a look into that using the site you quoted above.

Wrong Intifada - I was referring to the original one in 1987, not the Al-Aqsa Intifada.

I don't dispute much of the info in the link - but to assume that it is "All the Palestinian's Fault" is being pretty biased.   I said Col. Hammes has presented the best overview to date:

"The obvious question is, What happened? How did the Palestinians squander their 4GW victory over the Israelis?   How did the Israelis arrive at a point where they essentially have no security in their own homes?

It required major efforts by peacemakers on both sides to achieve the level of confidence necessary to sign the accords.   It also required major efforts by hardliners on both sides to reverse conditions to what confronts us today.   In fact, it took almost seven years to go from Oslo to al-Aqsa.   Over that time, hardline Palestinians took control of the Intifada and restated their goal of destroying Israel.   For their part, hardline Israelis took, and continue to take, aggressive, bloody action against the Palestinians.   Essentially, Israeli hardliners, in conjunction with hardline, centralized, entrenched, and out-of-touch Palestinian leadership, led their peoples to this place.   They were actively assisted by radical fundamentalists on both sides.

On the Israeli side, hardliners led by Ariel Sharon and Binyamin Netanyahu consistently opposed the Oslo accords and worked aggressively worked to undermine them.   Their position from the beginning was that the accords were the first step the Palestinians' ultimate goal - the destruction of Israel....

The Palestinian fundamentalists also did their part.   In February and March 1996, they executed a series of suicide bombings in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.   The combination shook Israeli support for the peace accords, and Binyamin Netanyahu led Likud's return to power in May 1996.   The right was now in position to further slow the fulfillment of the peace accords and consolidate Israel's hold on the West Bank....

The two sides developed an unintentional symbiotic relationship.   Arafat needed. and still needs, an external enemy to retain his control.   Without such an enemy, the outrageous corruption of his regime and his inability to improve the conditions of his people might well lead to his removal from power.   That corruption has certainly been a major reason for his "promotion" to president and the "election" of a prime minister.   However, his continued defiance of Israel and his long-term survival skills have prevented his complete removal, so far.

Similarly, if Likud were to achieve their goal of annexation of key parts of the occupied territories, they had to convince the Israeli people that the Palestinians could never be trusted.   They had to convince them that despite Likud's failed policy of invading Lebanon and their failed policy in dealing with Hamas in South Lebanon, Likud still had the correct vision of the future.   In short, the right-wing party had to portray the Palestinians as seeking the annihilation of Israel; that "land for peace" was a false and dangerous dream.   They had to return Israeli opinion to that which existed before Intifada I."

Col Thomas Hammes, The Sling and the Stone: pp 112-117

As I said, a pox on both their houses....

But maybe I'm painting with too broad a brush. Perhaps I should be hopeful that Abbas is what everyone says he is. Unfortunately, I'm a realist.

Well, I place much more faith in Abbas to turn things around then I do in Arafat - the fact that he walked out on the offer Barak gave him indicates that he was only interested in conflict - I remain convinced that he was the biggest roadblock to a solution.

Sure, Abbas may have skeletons in the closet - but who in the region doesn't?   I'm sure we were all shocked when Sharon, invader of Lebanon and architect of the colonial expansion into the Occupied Terrorities, would pull an about face, leave the hardliners of the Likud in the dust, and unilaterally attempt to move towards a resolution by evacuating the Settlements - I'm sure Abbas is capable of doing the same.

I am a realist as well, but I'm not going to sit in the corner and paint "terrorist" with my big brush.  Here's an idea, instead of being Mr Pessimist and basically deriding everybody who doesn't see things at your level as a terrorist sympathiser, why don't you tell us what needs to be done.

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

Sheesh!  I leave for half an hour and I'm two pages behind!  I brought my good buddy Mr. Keith to help me out now ...

The Palestinians (and yes, I realize not every single Palestinian, but I am talking about an unfortunately large proportion of the population) support the use of terrorist tactics against the Jews.  I don't know how many of you have experienced life over there (I was in Israel "proper" as well as the Golan and the West Bank for about a month), but from my admittedly limited experience, it is nuts:

Israelis (including Arabs and Christians) try to live a peaceful life, going to work, paying their taxes, loving their families, etc., but then every few weeks some Palestinian A$$hole decides it's a good idea to blow himself up in a pizza parlour full of teenagers (who are as concerned about American Idol as they are about politics or religion).  It ain't right.  The "Refugee Camps" are nothing of the sort: they are cities and towns (albeit very poor ones), but nothing like a "Camp" (that ever existed in my imagination, anyway), let alone a Refugee Camp!  The entire economy based upon extorting cash from outside governments: there is very little interest in establishing anything resembling an economy ... waging war on Israel (by which I mean using terrorist tactics to kill Jews) is their economy.

The older generations had some hope: the younger generation (having grown up in these "refugee camps") know nothing but hate and war (actually terrorism).  It just ain't right.



Che, I have to admit I do have a problem with someone that would choose to "honour" the name of a mass-murdering psychopath like Che Guevara ... I only hope you do so out of ignorance, but that is a WAY different tangent.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Whoah... gonna take one giant step backwards and don poo protection equipment...

Kat

 

[48Highlander]

Sorry, but if you expect me to believe that every Palestinian has dedicated themselves to immolating the Jewish State, then you better try harder to convince me then a little cheap shot at Che.   I guess they are all rabid fundamentalists as well, aren't they?   :

Infanteer, did you get a chance to do a tour in Yugoslavia?  If you haven't ask some of the boys here about the kind of hatred that even average Bosnians or Croats showed towards Serbs, or vice versa.  I myself am half croat and half serb, yet if you do a search for one of my grandfahers, you'll find his name linked to war-crimes against serbs.  When people are engaged in a religious, cultural, or ethnic conflict, even the reasonable ones tend to develop extreemist tendancies.  In Yugoslavia, it took only a few years before people reached that point.  Imagine what it would be like after 50-60 years.  I'm not agreeng with "Dare" here, because there are certainly SOME Palestinians who can still view the whole conflict reasonably and who wants a civilized solution to it.  However, they are very few and far between.  Even in Canada I have yet to meet a single Palestinian who actually wants a reasonable negotiated settlement of the conflict.  I did meet a couple who agreed that Israel had a right to exist, but even they wanted all the settled territories given to palestine.  On the other hand, I also had the dubious pleasure of instructing a Palestinian on his QL2/3 course who beleived that all Jews deserved to die.  By the end of the course I had him negotiated down to "they don't desrve to die, but they have no right to their own state".
I know you're basing your opinions on the fact that there are always reasonable people on both sides of every conflict, however, in the case of Palstinians, I seriously doubt that there's more than 1 in 10 who'd agree to any sort of reasonable compromise.  60 years of warfare and poverty have seen to that.

 

[Infanteer]

Yup, BTDT.   I remember seeing local Muslims push a returning Serb's building supplies into the river because they didn't want him moving back.
I'm willing to bet you're on the money, 48th.   You know, I'm beginning to wonder if the situation is akin to the German/Soviet one on the Eastern Front - all reason out the window due to the actions of both sides.   Essentially, any chance for "decompressing" the conflict through mediation has went out the door with the heavy casualties both sides have taken in the Al-Aqsa Intifada.  

Why I am playing Devil's Advocate here is because there is alot of rage in the Palestinian community and it has really been amplified by the Al-Aqsa Intifada (your examples clearly indicate this), and I don't think it is fair to write it all off as terrorist extremism - anyone with cursory knowledge of the area knows that it is a tit-for-tat relationship there.   It is like the Balkans - I refused to go in pointing fingers at the Serbs (or the Croats or the Muslims) - they were all equal players in the game.

This is why I said earlier that I do support the current action of the Israeli government - basically cutting themselves off from the Palestinians, most who are probably done with talking, with a wall and pulling away from Gaza and the West Bank.

Before you guys get any ideas that I'm some Palestinian-flag waving freak from a college campus, I'll state very clearly that I support Israel as a modern, liberal democratic state.   You can look at past discussions on the issue and see that I'm quite consistent in supporting Israelis as the "Right Flank" against the Islamic Insurgency that is targetting the west (ie: I think knocking out ringleaders with Hellfires is a perfectly acceptable solution).

However, there is no black/white in this conflict and as a 4th Generation one, the solution lies with engagement.   Whether this engagement be by talking or a unilateral withdrawl to "put the ball in the Palestinian court" WRT World Opinion (remember, War of Perception), so be it - but nothing will get solved as long as we dwell on what the other guy did/is doing.