Another Israel/Palestine debate that started as something else - Carpe Diem

[larry Strong]

I have to agree with Wes also.

 

[1feral1]

Thanks Larry, I believe my feelings are wide spread, and there is nothing PC about it. Its just based on fact, and personal experience, and I don't care if the truth offends the do-gooders and snivel libertarians out there. Seems we pander to their every whim anyways. Well enough is enough.

Its just after 0500 here Monday in the tropics, and I gotta get into the Unit a bit early today, and living 70km out doesn't help. I am sure you all are enjoying your Sunday afternoons accross Canada.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[larry Strong]

Oh Ya It's 20 Deg C out and the sun is shining here

 

[1feral1]

Seems the ADF now has allowed access to this site again!

Well just got back from a 1.5hr PT session, up 'hearbreak hill' at the back of Enoggera, but at least this time in plain PT gear. Today's weather was 17C before dawn, and it will top off at about 25-27C, the palm trees are gently blowing in the breeze  ;D. Not bad for late autumn, but wait for it, the summers here are shockers.

Have a good day,

Wes

 

[Acorn]

Continued ignorance breeds continued problems

Thanks for demonstrating that so well.

Acorn

 

[Rebel_RN]

I don't believe that my view is ignorant in the least. I believe that there is a reason for emmigration and have no problems with that, as I stated earlier I have a big problem with re-hashing all of the centuries old issues once on Canadian soil, or trying to make Canada feel bad for inviting a particular group to Cold Lake. If they don't approve, TOUGH.

 

[spenco]

Well, to be fair, high schoolers/teenagers are one step below pondscum in EVERY civilized country, so that's pretty much par for the course.

I have to agree with this statement, in my school there are several clubs that under the mask of "human rights violations" bash the US and Israel at every opportunity, one girl i talked to who is in these clubs believes that Bush planned 9/11 and that Bin Laden is working for the CIA.  It shocked me when I learned that this sentiment is actually pretty common in my school.  They bash Israel for bulldozing "innocent Palestinians homes" while ignoring the fact that the same people go and blow themselves up and kill children about my age or younger.  What really bothers me is if I try to say something about it or try to argue their positions I am branded a racist fascist who would make Hitler look communist.

I think it's great that they were invited. What I find utterly nauseating is the fact that Immigrations allows the different cultures to come to Canada and create a mini-where ever they were from in the first place.

Yeah, Canada is going to become a mini-India or China in a few years at this rate but that debate is for another time.

I have no problems with someone remembering where they came from but it seems to me that once on Canadian soil they ( not all mind you ) tend to forget why they left. When emigrating to a western culture there are some western ideals that I feel should be imposed. maybe I'm way out in left field here but I don't want centuries old drama, issues, problems,and fighting being readily flaunted in my face or felt as though i am inconsiderate

Exactly.  I think it was Don Cherry who said "if an Italian goes to the USA, hes there for 5 mins and hes an American, but if an Italian comes to Canada, 25 years later hes still Italian.  Another problem brought to you by our lovely "cultural mosaic" bullshit we have here in Canada, people bring their politics from the homeland here, example: the anti-Japanese protests we had here in Vancouver from the Chinese community.

Back on topic:

As people Infanteer said, you cant paint with a broad brush; we know that not all Palestinians are brainwashed Jew-hating psycho-paths but unfortunately there are many who are, so the problem is how is this going to change?  As someone pointed out it isn't going to happen anytime soon while people train their 4 year old kids to hate like that.  I'm going to sound like a pacifist hippy saying this but I don't think that violence will solve this problem, there has to be a more long term solution than blowing the other guy up.  IMHO the wall that Israel is building/has built sounds like the best solution, physically separate the two peoples so Palestinian suicide bombers can come in, nor can Israeli tanks, although I think that Israel should have built the wall along the 1967 borders.  So, I know it wont be as simple as this but if both sides stayed off eachothers back for a while without any major incident to give fuel to the fire maybe tempers will cool and the two sides will be able to get a long term peace solution.  (This is the part where I get my head out of the clouds.)  Will that work?  Probably not, there is too much hatred on both sides for anything like that to work.  The UN should theoretically be doing something about this but it is hardly un-biased and fair, it has repeatedly shows it's pro-Palestine orientation, so Israel wouldn't agree to a UN brokered agreement. Perhaps another Camp David meeting would be appropriate in a few years, with Arafat gone who knows, maybe something good will come out of it and there will be something concrete and long term that could help to solve the regions problems.  I suppose we'll have to wait and see.

Well I think thats the longest post I've ever typed.  ;D

 

[Polish Possy]

Thats a good point

That reminds me of Grade 9 geography with melting pots and tossed salads

America is like a melting pot because ur your like a ice cube that is put in boiling water and then u melt into an American , here in Canada it is like a salad because there is a little bit of every thing and not all the same


Also, alot of high school students are stupid and immature but there are still some that are responsible
just like not all middle eastern people are terrorists and not all Asians are great at math these are stereotypes brought on by the media ? parents ? friends ? like I said before it is a screwy world and we are hanging on for dear life.

Here in Canada we get our kicks from whoopie couchons and bowling in Iraq some people get their kicks of gunning down police and children , Now I know that this doesn't happen with all people in Iraq but that crap doesn't happen here in Canada every day but Why ? because of the government , more important problems , common sense, rules involing weapons  I really don't know crap like that is even considered ....but because of recent events you can't say anything with out some one getting offened , for example you can't wear trench coats , bandanna's , Camo pants with out one person saying jeez don't shoot up the school now or you should talk to a guidance teacher , I am sick of all this crap , even when I tell people I want to become a soldier to defend and protect this country I live in they still insist there must be some thing wrong with me. But is it some thing wrong with me or them ?

 

[Acorn]

I don't believe that my view is ignorant in the least. I believe that there is a reason for emmigration and have no problems with that, as I stated earlier I have a big problem with re-hashing all of the centuries old issues once on Canadian soil, or trying to make Canada feel bad for inviting a particular group to Cold Lake. If they don't approve, TOUGH.

"Centuries old issues" will be "re-hashed" on Canadian soil no matter how much you'd like to prevent it: Aboriginal issues, Anglo-Franco issues, name it. The FACT is we have relatively free speech here in Canada, and if YOU don't like that there are many places you can go to (emigrate from Canada). So long as they don't cross the line of protesting violently or incitement to violence I invite immigrants to use their presence in Canada to benefit from the freedom that brought them here in the first place. Like it or not, the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians have a beef with Israel. Sure, their some of anger might be better directed towards their Arab neighbours (for various reasons, that you must know since you aren't ignorant of the conflict), but currently they are occupied by Israel, not Jordan, Egypt or Syria. What do you expect?

Acorn

 

[Infanteer]

"Centuries old issues" will be "re-hashed" on Canadian soil no matter how much you'd like to prevent it: Aboriginal issues, Anglo-Franco issues, name it. The FACT is we have relatively free speech here in Canada, and if YOU don't like that there are many places you can go to (emigrate from Canada). So long as they don't cross the line of protesting violently or incitement to violence I invite immigrants to use their presence in Canada to benefit from the freedom that brought them here in the first place. Like it or not, the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians have a beef with Israel. Sure, their some of anger might be better directed towards their Arab neighbours (for various reasons, that you must know since you aren't ignorant of the conflict), but currently they are occupied by Israel, not Jordan, Egypt or Syria. What do you expect?

Acorn

Thank you, Acorn, for again bringing some sense into the "lynch-mob" that tends to form around here at times.

This whole debate is a see-saw one, and is really going into spin-cycle mode.  However, I wish to add a further comment to the moral indignation against the "suicide bomber babies" and the parading of children in Palestinian protests.  Dressing up a child to resemble the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade is like us throwing our children into Cadet Uniforms and watching them march around the street:

Moreover, I believe that cultural conceptions of war determine our social outlook on "styles" of fighting.  Look at the way suicide bombers are treated in the society from which the came from; they are celebrated as heros.  The cultural mechanism that supports this is the enormously strong undertow of Islam; of which many of its interpretations define suicide bombing as martyrdom and entry to heaven.  They are looked upon as true "warriors" of their society.

This isn't unique to Islamic cultures and sub-cultures either; just look at the Japanese Kamikaze of WWII and the ceremonial significance of their sacrifice.

Now take the laser-guided bomber.  Look at the social and historical aspects of this form of fighting.  Highly technological and sometimes indiscriminate.  Bravery, skills to return alive, "Knights of the Air" dogfighting, Memphis Belle, the dashing aviator.  These are all cultural mechanisms surrounding the form of Air War we've developed.  As such, vaporizing a Hezbollah leader with a laser-guided bomb or firebombing a city may seem "cowardly" to an enemy with a culture that does not have the mechanisms to process that type of violence.  Just as you won't see Western societies have icons such as manuals on suicide bombings, pictures of babies with explosive belts, and rewards for the families of martyrs; you won't see Islamic societies developing icons like Douhet, the Enola Gay, and Top Gun.

You could apply this throughout history.  I bet you the Aztec's thought the Spanish cowardly for fighting from horses, engaging in ranged combat with rifles, and trying to kill instead of capture for sacrifice.

Is it relative?  Sure.  There is no spectrum of "effective", "just", or "better" ways of fighting.  The violence we chose to wreck upon ourselves as humans is totally dependent on factors in the time and space we occupy.  We simply fight the way we know best.  The fact that it is what we know best doesn't make it more superior or moral then other forms.  However, simply trying to graft on aspects of how others fight into our unique paradigm of warfighting may have unintended consequences.  Consider it akin to introducing some new, violent species into a closed ecosystem; the consequences are often dramatic.

 

[larry Strong]

Dressing up a child to resemble the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade is like us throwing our children into Cadet Uniforms and watching them march around the street:

To imply that Cadets are along the same lines as suicide bombers is ridiculous.

 

[Polish Possy]

I didn't want to touch that with a 20 ft pole but ....

I guess in some ways you could say cadets and sucidebombers are the same but there are huge differences ....I can see both sides of this but I think the people running cadets don't have revenge and anger towards other people in this country ...as I said there are some simulaities but I wouldn't say they are the same, Main reason is that cadet leaders don't tell the kids to go out and kill a certain race of people for their homework....

 

[Infanteer]

To imply that Cadets are along the same lines as suicide bombers is ridiculous.

You obviously didn't read my statement.

As I said above, many within the Palestinian movement are angry (for reasons that may or may not be legitimate) and see the suicide attackers such as the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade in a heroic and patriotic light - in the Middle East, religion and poltics are one, thus those that sacrifice themselves against perceived injustices against Islam are seen as defenders of Islamic society and lauded for their piety and their self-sacrifice.

Western social and cultural thought simply has no mechanisms to process suicide attacks - we are apt to write it off as bizarre and barbaric; consider what would happen if someone ordered Bloggins to ram his Iltis full of C4 into an enemy position.  However, with Islamic cultures (among others, see the reference to the Japanese Kamikaze I made above) there is a very real importance attached to the demonstration of the resolve by displaying youth hardened to resist a perceived threat.  If we fail to heed this we may blind ourselves to important facts and aspects of those who would oppose us - remember what Sun Tzu said about know your enemy.  What I'm cautioning against is letting the baby pictures lead us to denigrating the will or the will to conflict of the enemy.

We are no different with dressing our children up as soldiers and marching them around in formations - in times when we faced a bigger threat (as anyone who was a cadet 10-30 years ago can attest to), we actually trained them, took them out on training exercises with soldiers and considered them to be "soldiers in waiting" - ready to heed the call to arms when they came of age.

It is conceivable, if we step outside of our cultural bubble of right and wrong, that someone who sees Western soldiers marching through their community would be angered by the image of 14 year old cadets being prepared for disciplined Western military service - just as many here are angered by the youth being taken to demonstrations dressed up as suicide bombers.

 

[larry Strong]

Thats ok, The worst they can do is take away some of my birthdays......an I have a few score I would trade off . To equate dressing up your children in a fashion that represents, a segment of society that condones going out and indiscriminatly blowing up what ever they can find, to a youth group that tries to teach responsibility and self discipline borders on the inane if not totaly incredulous.

This was posted after the last three post's but I still stand by it.

 

[Infanteer]

To equate dressing up your children in a fashion that represents, a segment of society that condones going out and indiscriminatly blowing up what ever they can find, to a youth group that tries to teach responsibility and self discipline borders on the inane if not totaly incredulous.

Again, you are failing to read my posts.

They are dressing their children up as the defenders of their Islamic society - martyrdom against those perceived to be occupying their native soil is seen as pious "responsibility" and "self discipline" in supporting what is most likely the central influence in their lives, Islam.   It is their social and individual interpretation; who am I to say they are wrong?   The only thing I can go on is my conviction to my own cause and means (disciplined and principled military force directed by an secular, lawful state entity), but this does not necessarily invalidate theirs.

Just trying to deflate this notion of "Well, I send my kid to Cadets and they hold theirs up dressed like Suicide Bombers - fucking rag-head terrorists....someone pass the KFC!"

 

[Acorn]

Some of the sentiments expressed here are the reasons why we seem to never get anywhere when dealing with Islamic or Arabic culture (for those who aren't aware, many of you I suspect, Arab Christians feel more solidarity with Arab Muslims than with Western Christians). I often see sentiments here scoffing at "cultural awareness" training, but ultimately it's that trg that gives us much of the success we can claim on our deployments.

The fact is, we don't get it. We don't even try. I'm pleased that the Int Branch has introduced a great deal on bias, identifying it and setting it aside, in the past years. Cultural projection has been one of our greatest input errors - we tend to view the actions of our enemies through our own cultural lenses. I think Infanteer has made some good points, and those of you who are unable to see the similarity between kids in HAMAS suicide bomber kit and Cadet uniforms are looking through a microscope viewer. There are those in our own society who despise the notion of Cadets, and even para-militaristic Boy Scouts, for much the same reasons we despise those who would encourage their kids to "martyrdom." After all, is not Cadets mainly instilling in our children the value of defending our Nation, even to the possible cost of their own lives? It may be difficult to imagine, but try to imagine our country under occupation of a foreign power, 2 to 3 generations being denied decent education, and a "Canadian Authority" pseudo-government that has no interest in our welfare as a people, and which is concerned with it's own hold on power and distribution of wealth within it's own ranks (OK, the latter part isn't so hard to imagine.)

Acorn

 

[Rebel_RN]

I have to say that after reading the varied views of other members on here My eyes have been opened to certain issues, I do that there is a great injustice going on and that we as canadians are only seeing a small, this isn't because we don't want to see the big picture but rather because we aren't able to simply because we are Canadian. We can only(for the majority) specualate on what the big picture is. In reading these posts I do think that there is aome truths to what other's (Acorn and Infanteer) have said.

 

[larry Strong]

No Infanteer I am reading your posts, but I still stand by what I say. I don't care what you use for logic or show as picture's of "boy soldiers', your   equating cadets to suicide bombers flies in the face of reason. Don't like it? to bad! thats my opinion, and I think you will find there are more people who will agree with me than you.

 

[Acorn]

Larry, you are choosing to look at the surface, not the substance. I think you may be right that more will agree with you, than with Infanteer. But then more people vote Liberal in Canada than don't (or that was the case for the past few elections).

Acorn

 

[larry Strong]

Well 7% more of the electorate voted for the Liberals than the Conservatives in the last election, so I guess you are right there. Not that, that is a great achievement. But substance or not, to equate Cadets to suicide bombers is like saying Conservatives are Nazi's. And I am sure there are a few people out here who think exactly that.