Alternate for the CIC

[CrashBear]

And there are NCM's in the ranks with Master's degrees. Whats your point? Having a post-secondary education is not a *mandatory* requirement for the CIC. Many CIC officers do not have any type of degree, and barely passed high school at that. Point in case, I met a female CIC officer who is now working as a Budweiser Girl after having just passed high school.

The point is not if there are people with degrees in the CIC, its that having a degree is an essential requirement to be an officer in the rest of the CF, but not for the CIC (who are still considered to be commissioned officers on the same level as everyone else).  

Not really sure what your point is.

Given very limited information and expanding on your rational, I see an Officer who has completed something(high School).  This person is working and contributing to society. Do you know what are the other considerations. What kind of background does she come from?  Is she able to afford to got to University? What are her family background limitations in giving her assistance?  Is she working doing CIC work and going to University to further herself at the same time.  If not is she attempting to incraese her knowledge base with in her ablity to do so.  Does this make her any less a capable Officer when she reports for duty?

Just because she works at a career that would seem to be demeaning to you is she any less an Officer. I personally know of very cabable Officers who's primary employment is driving Honey wagons sucking out peoples spetic systems.  Having said that the addition side of the information is that he owns the company?

That's my point. A CIC officer comes from many different backgrounds and make a valuable contribution to the Aims of the CCM.

 

[McG]

If CIC officers want to be taken seriously as professional officers in a military, on par with the rest of the officer corps, then having the degree as a prerequisite is a good start.

2332Piper,
I know many excellent commissioned officers, in both the regular force and primary reserve, that do not have university degrees.   I know some who have enrolled from civi street in the last handful of years.   There are regular force and reserve officers without degrees that are intelligent contributors to these boards.

Who in the infantry world does having a degree benefit? Armour officers don't really need one, heck, anyone who isn't in a tech trade does not really *need* a degree. But having one decrees a level of professional development and skills, which is necessary as an officer in the CF.

The need for university education is not to produce platoon and company commanders.   It is to produce capable formation commanders, command level staff officers, commanders of commands, Chiefs of Defence Staff, etc.   These are not places you are likely to find CIC.   Other than some exercise in â Å“penis size,â ? why would the CIC officers need university degrees?

... what about officer professional military education offered through RMC? Acceptable?

Well, seeing as CIC should be able to represent the CF to Canadians and educate cadets on the CF, there are certainly several OPME that could be made mandatory.   The Canadian Military History OPME would provide the CIC officer with the requisite knowledge to educate cadets on the history of the CF and its role in Canadian society.   Introduction to Defence Management would give the CIC the requisite knowledge to educate the cadets about the current structure of the CF & how in operates.  

 

[CrashBear]

2332Piper,
I know many excellent commissioned officers, in both the regular force and primary reserve, that do not have university degrees.   I know some who have enrolled from civi street in the last handful of years.   There are regular force and reserve officers without degrees that are intelligent contributors to these boards.
The need for university education is not to produce platoon and company commanders.   It is to produce capable formation commanders, command level staff officers, commanders of commands, Chiefs of Defence Staff, etc.   These are not places you are likely to find CIC.   Other than some exercise in â Å“penis size,â ? why would the CIC officers need university degrees?
Well, seeing as CIC should be able to represent the CF to Canadians and educate cadets on the CF, there are certainly several OPME that could be made mandatory.   The Canadian Military History OPME would provide the CIC officer with the requisite knowledge to educate cadets on the history of the CF and its role in Canadian society.   Introduction to Defence Management would give the CIC the requisite knowledge to educate the cadets about the current structure of the CF & how in operates.  

Im not sure if I entirely agree with you on this. Yes OPME is valuable in developing an Officers general knowledgebase but is it really what the CIC Officer needs to perform their duties.  I submit as a past CO of a Corp that to meet the mandate of "stimulate an interest in the CAF" I would bring in someone from the affliated unit or when ever an opportunity presented itself when the Reg force personnel were in town.

I believe what would help the CIC Officer more is required education in how to deal with a cadet who has ADD or FAS. Perhaps some basics in child phycology.  The education of a CIC Officer does not end with enrolment especially when dealing with youth.

A case in point, I had a youngser who wanted to be in cadets in the worst way but his parents were reluctant to let him join as he was one of 5 children in North America who's illness dictated that he would not see his 18th birthday. In order to to be fair to the Cadet and the parent and with their permission I had a 2hr meeting with the family Doctor and learned what I could do to ensure that the child would be safe within the CCM. That youngster is still in the system at age 16 never went to camp but has been having a ball ever since.

A good CIC Officer looks for ways to advance their education in a way that will allow the youth to participate within the program safely.

 

[CrashBear]

CF policy clearly states that unless an exception is made, officers are required to have a university degree. Having one speaks to having a higher level of maturity, work ethic and education (please PLEASE don't take this as a bash towards people with no degree, thats not what this means). Thats what is needed and should very well be required of officers.

You have said a mouth full there.

As to maturity, work ethic and education I have a very good friend who has a PhD and teaches at UofA who outside of the confines of the campus couldn't find his backside in the dark with both hands and a flashlight.  On the other hand I have a friend who is an Air CIC Officer who flys for a major airline and has never been inside a University in his life.  His educational equivent is at the PhD level and is an excellent Officer.

 

[Infanteer]

This is an excellent thread on Officers and education

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/23230.0.html

As Brad Sallows said in the above linked thread, a PSE is a good goalpost, not a gatekeeper.

As well, although a general PSE is supposed to give a person a variety of analytical tools, this isn't always the case and it shouldn't be assumed that a PSE automatically means "smart".  I believe that an educational requirement "goalpost" should hone in on military affairs at a  deeper level then the OPME programs - it shouldn't be assumed that degrees in zoology, Scandinavian literature, and Gay and Lesbian studies offer the same "raw material" to the Professional Officer Corps - like the Kriegsakadamie of old, a proper military education should enhance the professional capabilities of our Officers.

Finally, Mr Piper, don't stray out of your lane because you are starting to.   We have many senior officers on these boards who don't have Post Secondary Educations and are proven in real world operations as able commanders.   Where you've got the stones to declare that they lack some sort " higher level of maturity, work ethic and education" is beyond me - even with your meaningless disclaimer.

My Two Cents,
Infanteer

 

[McG]

Im not sure if I entirely agree with you on this. Yes OPME is valuable in developing an Officers general knowledgebase but is it really what the CIC Officer needs to perform their duties. I submit as a past CO of a Corp that to meet the mandate of "stimulate an interest in the CAF" I would bring in someone from the affliated unit or when ever an opportunity presented itself when the Reg force personnel were in town.

I've been to communities in which the CIC officers were the only members of the CF, or communities in which the CIC officers were the only commissioned members of the CF.  In these communities, the CIC officer must fill the reserve roll of connecting with Canadians.  The CIC officer must be able to inform the cadets and the community about the CF.

I think connecting with Canadians is as reasonable a role for the CIC as it is for the primary reserves.

 

[CrashBear]

MCG

I agree with you that often the CIC is all that most communites see.  Every Officer should be versed in the Duties Roles and Responsibilities of the CF and where they fit into the scheme of things.  However detailed training in all aspects of the military to the CIC Officer is not really required based on their"Primary Duties and Responsibilities"  When I first became a CIC Officer was at my request of the Recruiting Office to send up an Officer to a Northern Community.  They used the opportunity to do some recruiting for the CAF as well as interview candidates for the CIC in a community that was trying to get a Cadet Corps started.  It seemed after the Corp was started that regular visits by Recruiting was ongoing as well as regular visits by the Corps Affiliated Unit and the Reg Force.

In today's CCM the Cadet Corps have more opportunities to have exposure to the CAF and stimulate the interest in both the Corps and the communites that they are in.  I feel a good CIC Officer takes advantage of this and utilizes the resource.

The OPME program is a valuable resource for the CIC Officer but really not essential to the primary duties of a CIC Officer. Other more valuable sources of education would be of a benefit, thus meeting the criteria of development of a Professional Officer to perform the duties to which they are assigned.

 

[CrashBear]

I agree with you that we must keep ourselfs as current as possible, but keeping with the new direction of what makes a Professional Officer, That we must identify what is the required primary training requirement in order to fulfill the duties assigned.

The basic of all required CIC training is Military, however given the Primary Duties one would think that relevant education would be the theme of the day with additional Military training the secondary consideration.

As Officers in the CAF we are required to keep ourselves up to date on numerous things and some being mandated by QR&O's.

Does the Training given by RCIS meet the mandate of what our primary duties entail? Some would argue that it is not.

 

[PViddy]

I believe you can commision from the ranks in the RegF. as well ? correct me if i am wrong.

PV

 

[combat_medic]

Furthermore, under the RESO program, you must complete your degree before you get your commission.

 

[xFusilier]

Not unless they've changed it...

Pass RESO II - promoted 2Lt

Pass RESOIII - promoted to Lt

At least thats the way it used to work in the infantry, and I know for a fact there are tons of reserve infantry officers out there who do not have degrees IMHO the whole degree thing is a red herring.

 

[Steve031]

I think the problem most Reg/Res have with the CIC is that they aren't soldiers.  It's kind of odd to have a branch of the military that wears the same uniform of the military and yet is full of members who are not soldiers.  So the argument is that CIC members should not be commissioned officers in the CF because they are not soldiers.  Just to pre-empt any arguments about what a soldier is, any member of the military who participates in the waging of war (from the combat arms to a clerk in NDHQ) is a soldier.  They are trained to participate in armed conflict.  CIC officers are not.  In that sense, it makes sense that soldiers do not want to salute CIC officers because they are not soldiers and the salute is a form of greeting held to be exclusive to soldiers.

 

[Duke]

Interesting.

Is the Queen a soldier? The Governor General? The Prime Minister?

You are paying compliments to the commission and the trust and confidence shown by the Monarch that goes with it, not the person .

Duke

 

[Steve031]

Are you comparing yourself to the Queen?

Actually, the Queen is a soldier.   The prime minister is not, however this is because he has no formal role in the CF.   The Queen is a soldier because she is the Commander in Chief of the Canadian Forces.   The Governor General is her deputy in Canada, and traditionally a military post.   Therefore, it is on her orders that we, soldiers of Canada, go to war.   Her role, as the authority that sends the military to war, makes her a soldier.

You missed the whole point of my statement.   The CIC is an oddity because it is part of the CF even though its members aren't soldiers.   The argument is that a salute is a greeting between soldiers, an statement of trust and respect between soldiers and the officers who could lead them in battle, and so it is understandable that soldiers would resent saluting someone who, while a member of the military, is not one.

 

[Duke]

And you missed my point, entirely, Steve031.

"Are you comparing yourself to the Queen" Nope. Are you?

The PM has no formal role in the CF??????

You don't need to be a soldier to be saluted. Is our National Flag a member of the CF? Having a role, formal or otherwise in the CF is irrelevant. What about Honorary Colonels and Lt Colonels? They don't have to be soldiers or even ex-soldiers. Do you arbitrarily not salute them, I mean their commission are only honorary? Once again: You are saluting the commission (comes from the Queen via the GG) and the trust/confidence that goes with it, NOT the person. If you have a problem understanding that, you might want to tell HRH or the GG that they made a boo-boo. Better still, take it up your chain of command.  

Duke

 

[Trinity]

Just to pre-empt any arguments about what a soldier is, any member of the military who participates in the waging of war (from the combat arms to a clerk in NDHQ) is a soldier.  They are trained to participate in armed conflict.

Am I a soldier as a Chaplain.  I do not participate in the waging of war.  I provide pastoral assitance to any member
of any religion but I do not participate in waging of war.  I don't participate in an armed conflict as much as I try
to minimze the damage spiritually, morally and ethically. 

I have worked at Cadet camps.  I have learned that it is easy to generalize the CIC as "fake soldiers".  But the
reg force does that to the Reserves.  In 12 years, I have learned every system has good people working for it,
people who are just there, and then the ones you wish never put a uniform on. 

Somtimes being a good soldier is sucking up and doing what you HAVE to do, even when you don't like it.
Salute the CIC officers.  I don't make the rules. 

Incidently, I had to salute DUKE before...  its only mildly disturbing and thats just cause of the way he looks.

i'm not siding with Duke cause I know him.  I know a few GREAT CIC officers who i would rather have than some
of my own officers in my career. Leadership comes from the man, not the trade.


secretly i feel your pain...  been there.. OCdt at a cadet camp.. yeah.. i saluted everyone. If I can, you can. Its soldiering.


[Mod Edit to fix quote tags.]

 

[Duke]

C'mon, Trinity. I haven't looked disturbing since I shaved off the moustache and threw away my "I love Ricky Martin"T-Shirt.

Duke

 

[Steve031]

As a chaplain, you are a soldier.  Your job, correct me if I'm wrong, is to minister to the spiritual needs of those who fight or support the fighting in war. 

I understand the idea of saluting a commission, rather than a person.  In fact, I have saluted many cadet officers in my time.  I don't have any problem with the cadet instructors cadre being officers.  I'm just pointing out the fact that the salute is a soldier's greeting, and that's why some soldiers have trouble according it to non-soldier members of the CF (ie. the CIC).  I'm not going to argue each individual case, because I'm not trying to say it's alright for NCMs not to salute an officer.  I'm just explaining why so many of us feel this way.

 

[LF(CMO)]

The only valid criticism, as per the CIC, that I've seen on these pages is the fitness one.  However, as has been pointed out, the Regs and the P-Res but can be included in that as well.

The other stuff on saluting, Queens Commission, part of the CF, style of uniform is just superfluous nonsense from people that can't think of anything original and are desperate to criticize something!

Most of the CIC Officers that I've been associated with are very capable, dedicated people and are as capable as any in the CF.  When a 19 year old upstart from the P-Res launches into a criticism of the CIC, I just treat as a form of 'comic relief'.

As a CIC Officer, I have been embarrassed by the 'form' of some of the CIC Officers and I've been a long time advocate of a Basic fitness standard for the CIC of some sort.

As a CIC Officer in my mid fifties, I meet the BMI for weight and height, I can make 5.5 on the 'beep' test and I did two jumps for the 60th anniversary of D-Day.  If you don't want to my salute commission, I could care less.  That's your problem

 

[Trinity]

As a chaplain, you are a soldier.  Your job, correct me if I'm wrong, is to minister to the spiritual needs of those who fight or support the fighting in war.

Yes and No.  Its not that simple.

Yes, I am a soldier. But I don't think according to your definition I fall into it.  If my job is to bolster the spiritual needs
of the troops so they can go out and kill again then I am sorely in the wrong trade.

According to the Chaplains manual, in a time of war we
a) nuture the living,
b) care for the wounded
c) honor the dead
d) protect civiians and prisoners of war

I can't find where it says it in the manual, but the best way to describe it is as this....

We act as a moral compass.  In the time of chaos we provide a moral bearing for the troops
so that they can have standards in a time where there appears to be none.  By doing so we
can avoid any undue attrocities of war that soldiers might commit without any moral guidance.

Yes, if I search the chaplains manual I can find one paragraph to support your claim. But one paragraph
in 15 chapter manual hardly consists of the "nature" of the chaplains job.  We are non-combatants.
Our participation in the waging of war is negliable.

okay.. enough said.. either to you I do contribute to war or I don't.  I don't consider that to be true, you do.
I just hope I have shown you a different side of my trade than what you thought. I will happily continue this in a
PM, but I will not hijack this thread or try to openly represent the Chaplains brach, cause clearly I do not.

NOW.. these are just my the humble opinions and do not reflect those of  the chaplains branch.

(edit.. reworded the middle... cause i can!)