Alternate for the CIC

[Bean]

Thanks Kyle, always appreciate the positive response of our moderators.

Now how about that extra thread?

 

[Burrows]

Go for it.

 

[dgrayca]

Pertaining to what McBear? Generally the standards have gone up somewhat over the years. The problem lies with maintaining a standard. If COs and higher officers don't ensure the standard(for whatever issue this pertains to) isn't met on a regulated basis, what should they do?

Personally I think if a CIC officer doesn't maintain the standard for dress and deportment, administration, and current guidlines, they should immediatly be counseled, and put on a probationary period. If they fail during this period...C&P. Follow that by another period and assesment, still no good...charge or discharge. Cut and dry.

But I'm sure that we are aware that it won't ever come to this because right now the CIC cadre is hurting for officers, if they squeeze newcomers too hard they quit.

I've seen one officer that should have been punted a long time ago. Overweight, doesn't adhere to dress regs(won't divuldge too much)etc.
He thinks he has the world by the tail right now, wait until I get back from this hole.  :evil:

Regards

A few simple points to think about:

1.  If the standards were raised do you think the number of CIC officers would increase or decrease?  The CIC currently has a huge shortage of officers.... 
2.  What's worse for the cadets, overweight CIC officers or NO CIC Officers (i.e. NO CORPS/SQUADRONS)??  Think about it...
3.  What skills are required to be a good CIC officer?  Being a CIC officer is about administration and teaching.  The skill set is COMPLETELY different than that of other trades therefore the standards should be DIFFERENT.

on a side note... the average level of education is higher within the CIC body of officers than the PRes or Reg body of officers. 

This is coming from a current militia officer who has 9 years past CIC experience.

 

[Bean]

While I can agree in principle to your points about the dwindling numbers if standards are changed, I still believe that by not requiring a physical fitness standard we are doing the cadets a dis-service.  What is the first stated aim of the CCM? To promote physical fitness.  Having officers who can't walk 20 yards without breaking a sweat or needing a nap does not contribute to the goals of the cadet program.  I agree that the skill set required is completely different, and the education level is excellent, but since one of our stated aims is centered on fitness every CIC officer should be capable of meeting some reasonable level of fitness performance.  I think we can all agree that overweight does not necessarily indicate a lack of physical fitness so just targeting the overweight doesn't work, and there are overweight individuals in every trade in the CF from my experience (I haven't always been a CIC type).  But as one of the most visible elements of the CF in local communities we need to present a positive image of the CF by maintaining good to superior dress and deportment standards.  The shortage of CIC officers will always be an issue, and we will continually have to find innovative ways to deliver our training, so this should not be an excuse for slacking on standards or bringing in those who do not present a positive image to our cadets and the public at large.

 

[elscotto937]

on a side note... the average level of education is higher within the CIC body of officers than the PRes or Reg body of officers.  

I have heard this stated before, I believe in this thread. I'm curious what study this is based on and what are the numbers.

 

[Springroll]

When I was in cadets I had the priveldge of working with some incredibvle CIC's. There are always going to be those that disgrace the cadet movement(I can give you names, if you like) but then there are those that really do take it seriously and do a darn good job at it too(can give you a couple names there to)....

 

[aesop081]

When I was in cadets I had the priveldge of working with some incredibvle CIC's. There are always going to be those that disgrace the cadet movement(I can give you names, if you like) but then there are those that really do take it seriously and do a darn good job at it too(can give you a couple names there to)....

You are quite right.  As with both the reg and pres, there are good ones and there are bad ones in the CIC.  We were just talking about this at lunch today when a rather large femal CIC captain walked by.  With cadet season in full swing here in shangrilla, we have noticed a few who's uniform pushed the limits of engineering.  While we know full well that they are CIC officers, joe 6-pack out there doesn't usualy have the benefit of this knowledge.  This presents a rather poor image of our forces.  That being said, before the inevitable CIC maffia flaming reaches my cruising altitude i will say that, unfortunately, some members of the regs around here give them some competition.  CIC officers have indeed a differing role to play but as long as they wear the same uniform i do, they should be held to the same standard and present a positive public image of the CF.

 

[PViddy]

Excellent posts from Bean and Aesop 

Yes, i beleive we should have higher standards for fitness, although it's easy for me to say because i am very physically active.  Yes, we are short on CIC Officers, some elements and regions are hurting more than others.  From the above posts, i believe we have reached an impasse.  if we raised the fitness standards, tommorow let's say-i bet we would loose 35 % (my guess-not a stat) of our current compliment due to medical release.

So what is more important, physical standards and the image of the CF as a whole or quality instruction for the cadets.  I say they are both very important issues and IMO i don't know if one is more important than the other.

I think this could spawn some interesting discussion.

cheers

PV

 

[LF(CMO)]

While I can agree in principle to your points about the dwindling numbers if standards are changed, I still believe that by not requiring a physical fitness standard we are doing the cadets a dis-service.   What is the first stated aim of the CCM? To promote physical fitness.   Having officers who can't walk 20 yards without breaking a sweat or needing a nap does not contribute to the goals of the cadet program.   I agree that the skill set required is completely different, and the education level is excellent, but since one of our stated aims is centered on fitness every CIC officer should be capable of meeting some reasonable level of fitness performance.   I think we can all agree that overweight does not necessarily indicate a lack of physical fitness so just targeting the overweight doesn't work, and there are overweight individuals in every trade in the CF from my experience (I haven't always been a CIC type).   But as one of the most visible elements of the CF in local communities we need to present a positive image of the CF by maintaining good to superior dress and deportment standards.   The shortage of CIC officers will always be an issue, and we will continually have to find innovative ways to deliver our training, so this should not be an excuse for slacking on standards or bringing in those who do not present a positive image to our cadets and the public at large.

I TOTALLY agree with most of the above!!  Can anyone explain how some of these Officers can reconcile there grotesque physiques with "LEAD BY EXAMPLE"?  As everyone knows, physical fitness is one of the stated goals of the Cadet Movement.  Are these people living in denial?

"I agree that the skill set required is completely different, "  I disagree with this.  Leadership is the same wherever you are.  The people that standout in the CIC would be sucessful in any context Mil or Civ.  There is nothing 'special' about the military.  In fact, the higher echelon jobs in the private sector are probably where the elite hang out.

 

[PViddy]

Can anyone explain how some of these Officers can reconcile there grotesque physiques with "LEAD BY EXAMPLE"? 

That sounds a little extreme.

Lead by example ? hah. thanks for blading your own peers.  I'm glad we don't work together.  I have a bad ankle from running, guess that makes me a horrid gimp.....

Maybe you should leave the labeling to Business Depot.


PV

 

[Springroll]

I don't think he was trying to insult.
I think(and forgive me if I am wrong) he is referrring to those CIC's that are overweight because of laziness. There is a difference between an injury making  you unable to participate in physical activities, and just being to darn lazy to get out of your chair to exercise.

 

[LF(CMO)]

I don't think he was trying to insult.
I think(and forgive me if I am wrong) he is referrring to those CIC's that are overweight because of laziness. There is a difference between an injury making   you unable to participate in physical activities, and just being to darn lazy to get out of your chair to exercise.

You've got it exactly right!!  Most of it is overeating and laziness.  I don't blame CF people for their animosity toward the CIC in this regard.  Although there might be some of it in the Regs and a few more in the P-Res; it's endemic in the CIC.  My guess is that a goodly number of them are female and that further complicates the 'politically correct' nature of the situation.

 

[Springroll]

Women and donuts do not mix....hehehe

 

[PViddy]

I agree with you  in the point of people should try and live an active lifestyle but i think for some people it get's much deeper than just being plain lazy.

Perhaps the solution is implementing a new fitness initiative for current members and having people who want to enroll do the express test like everyone else? just a thought


PV

 

[dgrayca]

I TOTALLY agree with most of the above!!   Can anyone explain how some of these Officers can reconcile there grotesque physiques with "LEAD BY EXAMPLE"?   As everyone knows, physical fitness is one of the stated goals of the Cadet Movement.   Are these people living in denial?

Sometimes a person's physical appearance is not reflective of their fitness standards.  I have worked with several CIC officers who did not look the image you probably think the should have, but are extremely fit individuals and who would easily meet the Militia fitness standards at anytime they are called upon.

What about the officers with health issues (bad hearts etc)... should they be removed from the CIC since they can no longer exercise fully?

Do you think every officer/ncm in the militia maintains their fitness level after enrollement.

Yes there are some who are obese through whatever reason people here state (laziness was one), but I think if you looked at the trade a little more closely you'd realize that they are the exception and not the norm, and thet you are gerneralizing on the largest officer body in the forces.

"I agree that the skill set required is completely different, "   I disagree with this.   Leadership is the same wherever you are.   The people that standout in the CIC would be sucessful in any context Mil or Civ.   There is nothing 'special' about the military.   In fact, the higher echelon jobs in the private sector are probably where the elite hang out.

So you are telling me that the same leadership skills apply to working with adults as it does with teens?  Absolutely not.  I have a higher echelon civilian job, have worked CIC and now work Militia, and I can tell you that the skill set to manage Corporate Managers, Corporate Emloyees, NCMs and Teens are all totally different.  Just because you are good at leading one, doesn't mean you are good at leading them all.

I have worked with some incredible Vice Presidents who inspire their staff, but would make the worst military leader and vice versa.

Dealing with subordinate officers or NCMs is also totally different than teens.  Try working with a troubled cadet who has no home life, has been in and out of juvie hall and tell me that's the same leadership required to deal with a Cpl.  Try dealing with an abused teen and tell me that's the same skill set as being a Battery Commander.

 

[dgrayca]

My guess is that a goodly number of them are female and that further complicates the 'politically correct' nature of the situation.

I'm guessing you got flying marks on your SHARP class.

 

[aesop081]

Dealing with subordinate officers or NCMs is also totally different than teens.   Try working with a troubled cadet who has no home life, has been in and out of juvie hall and tell me that's the same leadership required to deal with a Cpl.   Try dealing with an abused teen and tell me that's the same skill set as being a Battery Commander.

And in the same breath we have to deal with NCMs who have gambeling problems, drinking problems, that go AWOL on a weekly basis, some who have attempted suicide, marital issues, financial difficulties, behaviour problems, drug addictions........sounds like teenagers to me !

If wish i could point out to you the officers to which i was refering to previously.  It would be interesting to see you defend your position with a straight face.

Maybe give the CIC more destinguishing acoutrements for their uniforms so that the average canadian civie doesnt get the wrong impression about the CF ?

 

[Neill McKay]

Most of it is overeating and laziness.

[...]

Although there might be some of it in the Regs and a few more in the P-Res; it's endemic in the CIC.

How could you know either of these things?  Do you know that there are literally thousands of CIC officers in the Forces?  How many of them have you spoken with long enough to know their eating habits and health issues?  Or, for that matter, even laid your eyes on?  It's a big branch, you know.

 

[Neill McKay]

And in the same breath we have to deal with NCMs who have gambeling problems, drinking problems, that go AWOL on a weekly basis, some who have attempted suicide, marital issues, financial difficulties, behaviour problems, drug addictions........sounds like teenagers to me

Yep.   We're not so terribly different after all.

Maybe give the CIC more destinguishing acoutrements for their uniforms so that the average canadian civie doesnt get the wrong impression about the CF ?

For that to mean anything, the public world first have to know what a CIC officer is.   In a day and age when much of the population can't tell the difference between a Commissionaire and a sailor (or, for that matter, a sea cadet and a sailor) we're many steps short of that.

Of course, further branch-specific accoutrements for the CIC that wouldn't address the impression Joe Civvy gets of the Forces when he sees 250 pounds of Boatswain walking down the street in a 5'9" package, so it would be at best a partial solution.

 

[dgrayca]

And in the same breath we have to deal with NCMs who have gambeling problems, drinking problems, that go AWOL on a weekly basis, some who have attempted suicide, marital issues, financial difficulties, behaviour problems, drug addictions........sounds like teenagers to me !

Sure its similar, but its still different.

One major difference, military law.  An NCM falls under that, while a cadet doesn't.
Second major difference, one's a adult, one's a child.  Two totally different things as far as the law's concerned.

Don't get me wrong though, dealing with NCMs is challenging at times.  I'm not saying CIC are better leaders, I'm saying they're different types of leaders.

Maybe give the CIC more destinguishing acoutrements for their uniforms so that the average canadian civie doesnt get the wrong impression about the CF ?

The public would never notice.  They already have CIC sholder titles (CIC army) and I doubt Joe Blow even notices.  To be honest, most of the time you see CIC officers you see them with cadets.  I wouldn't be suprised if the average public just thought they were cadet leaders and not PRes Officers.

Maybe not...

If wish i could point out to you the officers to which i was refering to previously.  It would be interesting to see you defend your position with a straight face.

I know there are some, but they're more the exception than the rule.  For every 1 significantly out of shape CIC officers you can think of, how many in-shape can you think of?  I bet you the incident of obesity in the CIC is lower than the general public for starters.