Alternate for the CIC

[Steve031]

Couldn't agree more Inch, universality of service is definitely the point here.  I agree that the standards should be the same for all members, with exceptions for the combat arms (not just aircrew ;D).

 

[Inch]

Couldn't agree more Inch, universality of service is definitely the point here.   I agree that the standards should be the same for all members, with exceptions for the combat arms (not just aircrew ;D).

Sorry, that was a little vague, I meant higher medical for us (ie my med category is 111221) and higher physical fitness standards for the pointy end since that's relevant to you guys.

 

[CrashBear]

Couldn't agree more Inch, universality of service is definitely the point here.   I agree that the standards should be the same for all members, with exceptions for the combat arms (not just aircrew ;D).

The universality of service could very well be the point, but at what point do you slice the training. Does this imply that the CIC Off should have training which they would have no use for, be required to use or maintain. If the same entry type of training is the order of the day, would it not be more effective to provided the required essential training when and if required.

 

[my72jeep]

As far as bandsmen contributing in wartime, historically they have also been employed as stretcher bearers and medics (the band thread).  Here's the difference between CIC and the rest of the CF.  The PRES and Reg CF are soldiers who are trained and authorized to take deadly action against the enemy when appropriate.  The CIC are not trained to do so.  If you were a member of a foreign military and came to Canada and saw a system where a whole bunch of commissioned officers were members of the military and yet not actually qualified to fire the service rifle, what would you think?  Kind of odd.  Every member of the CF, except for the CIC, is trained to fire a weapon at people to some extent.  So, in a time of war, all these soldiers could conceivably fight wheras CIC officers could do nothing on the battlefield.

CIC has an important job, and generally they do it well.  But why do they have to be commissioned officers in the CF.  There isn't any real reason why they have to be, but some good reasons why they shouldn't be.

Here is a good reason, The CF lets the CCM use a lot of thier toys, Equipment, and resources. one way to keep tabs and accountability is to make CIC's part of the CF.

 

[CrashBear]

Here is a good reason, The CF lets the CCM use a lot of thier toys, Equipment, and resources. one way to keep tabs and accountability is to make CIC's part of the CF.

Old argument CIC is a part of the CF.  While I agree that the CIC should recieve the same BMQ as the rest does it really make sence to teach a CIC Officer in all aspects including those that you quote?  The locations of most Cadet Corps far from the locations where the CIC Officer can maintain the proficency to be current.  Just have to look at what is in place now. Once finished the CApt Qual. no further training except fro specilaty training.

 

[Inch]

The universality of service could very well be the point, but at what point do you slice the training. Does this imply that the CIC Off should have training which they would have no use for, be required to use or maintain. If the same entry type of training is the order of the day, would it not be more effective to provided the required essential training when and if required.

I don't think you realize what's taught on BOTC, you don't learn section attacks or C6/C9, you don't throw grenades, you don't do much in the way of actual pointy end tactics. The biggest thing you learn is task procedure (or battle procedure depending on who taught you), as well as all the basics like drill (a lot of drill followed by a drill test both with and without arms and swords), PT is quite regular, plus all the leadership classes as well as stuff officers should know like QR&O's and Geneva convention.

BOTC is the first step for all Reg force officers regardless of trade (except Padres), it turns a civilian into a CF officer, it has nothing to do with MOC training and therefore I don't believe would be a waste for CIC officers to go do. So you slice it after BOTC. I know an ex-CIC Capt that went reg force, he had to do BOTC with the rest of the nuggets, so what's that tell you about CIC training?

You do have a point though, even if CIC's didn't do BOTC, it would only take them 14 weeks to get trained properly to that level, universality of service has less to do with BOTC (or any training for that matter) and more to do with Medical and Physical fitness. If you're not medically or physically fit then all the training in the world won't make you fit for universality of service, so what good are you? Guys have been released for knee injuries which made them undeployable and therefore no good to the CF. If a CIC doesn't meet the basic medical and physical standards that the rest of the CF must meet, then you're automatically behind the 8 ball when it comes to universality of service since you're no good to the CF in any capacity other than as a CIC officer.

I can live with the lack of training, though as I said before, IMO all officers should at least do BOTC. Training is very minor if you're medically and physically unfit for employment in the CF, hence universality of service.

 

[CrashBear]

Agree with your points Inch however was refering to the quote from the previous post regarding training and qualified to take deadly action.

There are however exceptions to all rules regarding disablities. Not sure about the CF but a case in point for personnel enrolled   with disabilities in the US Forces. Example General Fred Franks JR(Ret) who after having his leg removed from injuries sustained in action as a LT, went on to Command US Armour forces in Desert Storm.

 

[Steve031]

Yes the CF gives the CIC permission to use alot of their toys.  However, this is always under the supervision of qualified CF members.  Besides which, that isn't an argument as to why a CIC commission should be the same as every other commission.

I think the idea that CIC officers should be BMOQ trained makes alot of sense.  At that point, they will be as qualified as the least qualified commissioned officer in the CF. 

 

[Burrows]

From PViddy:

Quote
IMO all officers should at least do BOTC

I would jump at the chance to do BOTC.  I wish Canada could adopy similiar legislation as in the US, that requires employers to give Reservists time off work for mandatory training.

 

[my72jeep]

Yes the CF gives the CIC permission to use alot of their toys.   However, this is always under the supervision of qualified CF members.   Besides which, that isn't an argument as to why a CIC commission should be the same as every other commission.

I think the idea that CIC officers should be BMOQ trained makes alot of sense.   At that point, they will be as qualified as the least qualified commissioned officer in the CF.  

Steve 031 The only time I have ever had an "Qualified" CF member supervise me is once on the C7 range with my Affiliated unit and I was better Qualified then the Cpl. I have $30.000-$50.000 of the Queens kit on my charge and not a "Qualified" CF member to be seen. Part of having the commission is that we can be held responsable for the kit without having a baby sitter.
I know the CF does not like to give a Civi uncontrolled axis to its toys, hard to send a civi to Edmonton. So maby some General decided to enroll us into the CF and give us a Commission. anyway I think 80% of CIC Officers agree with you about being BMOQ trained, I do, it would probably be easier then Cornwallis in the early 80's.

 

[aesop081]

I know the CF does not like to give a Civi uncontrolled axis to its toys,

Access !!

And as for you reference to the value of the kit under your charge, i don't buy it.   I have had nearly half a million dollars worth of Boats and trucks under my charge along with 30 soldiers, the conduct of an operation and everyone's safety without a commissioned "babysitter" and i was only a Mcpl so i do not buy your argument there.  If anything had gone wrong, beleive me, it would have been my ass in the sling an no one else. You dont have to hold a commission to be held accountable.

 

[my72jeep]

Yes when I was a Reg Cpl. 20 years ago same thing, But someone said that I could not be part of a cadet unit as a Cpl. that I had to Join the CIC and take a Commission it was how the CCM was set up.
Simple question if you pocket the 1/2 million who goes to jail you or the guy above you who should have kept an eye on you or both?

 

[aesop081]

Yes when I was a Reg Cpl. 20 years ago same thing, But someone said that I could not be part of a cadet unit as a Cpl. that I had to Join the CIC and take a Commission it was how the CCM was set up.
Simple question if you pocket the 1/2 million who goes to jail you or the guy above you who should have kept an eye on you or both?

quite simply.....ME !

 

[my72jeep]

Cool its the same way with the CIC. maybe someone up in the puzzle palace does not think the CCM is worth waisting an NCO on.

 

[aesop081]

re-reading things i may have misinterpreted your comments.   working with young officers fresh out of RMC, i often get the " you are a lowly NCM and can't be trusted with anything..I'm an officer so i am god" type attitude, so i may have mistaken you comments for that.   If i did i appologise for it.

 

[my72jeep]

No problem, I have the highest respect for NCM's. As and old RSM once told me it is the duty of an Officer to entertain the troops.
To bad the CIC is not authorised to enroll NCM's in to its ranks.

 

[drrchief]

I think that a lot of comment(tors) forget that a lot of current/past CIC officer may have been reg force (031!) and have screwed up knees/backs and it is a current way for them to pass on info to future generations.

Pro Patria!

 

[Ironside]

I know this is a bit off topic, but...

aesop081:

I find it hard to believe that there are many officers coming out of RMC with the so called "God" complex.  There are absolute tools wherever you go, and sometimes maybe they can come from RMC.  However, the impression I get is that everyone likes to show everyone up.

Citing a few examples I have encountered:

UTPNCMs with the "God" complex:
- They were in the ranks prior to becoming an officer and thus know more about the forces than any other officer new to the game.
- There are still good officers that come out of this program.

DEOs with the "God" complex:
- They already have a degree and have been at there respective training schools longer, thus being more 'enlightened' than the rest of the fresh officers.
- There are still good officers that come out of this program.

Civy U with the "God" complex:
- Hate RMC students because they applied there initially and were turned down, although being offered the opportunity to go to other universities under the ROTP - they subsequently have more to prove.
- There are still good officers that come out of this program.

RMC with the "God" complex:
- The traditional "ring knocker"/huge ego/four year education/know more than everyone else.
- There are still good officers that come out of this program.

NCOs with the "That guy thinks he's God" complex:
Officer: "Left flanking attack!!!"
NCO: "Sir, there's a giant river followed by a mine field with interlocking arcs of fire over there..."
Officer: "Shut-up I know what I'm talking about!  Left flank!!!"
NCO: "Dear Jesus, save me..."

In the words of Adam Sandler: "Let's keep this [blank] semi-real - everyone will encounter both terrible NCOs and officers in their careers.  It is not just restricted to the graduates of RMC.  Many graduates move on with the intent of constantly raising their professional level, and to simply knock them like so many do is not really necessary.

My intent of this message is not to offend anyone or force ideas on them, nor are these my own.  These are just mentalities/ideologies I have formed from stories that circulate and do nothing but to bring down the professional bar.  I'm just trying to display this in a fashion that I hope the majority of readers here find somewhat comical.

And the moral of the story is:
There are bad officers/NCOs/people/etc. in the world - please do not form a general opinion of them simply because a few that you have dealt with happen to come from the same place.  A vast majority of RMC graduates do not, in fact, have the infamous "lowly NCM" mentality that seems to circulate like wildfire.

 

[sgt_mandal]

In the words of Adam Sandler: "Let's keep this [blank] semi-real - everyone will encounter both terrible NCOs and officers in their careers.   It is not just restricted to the graduates of RMC.   Many graduates move on with the intent of constantly raising their professional level, and to simply knock them like so many do is not really necessary.

Adam Sandler said all that :|

 

[Ironside]

Just the "keep[ing] the...semi-real" part actually - I figured that was implied.

My apologies.