Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]

[Halifax Tar]

Right now, that all falls to environmental allowances. If we follow pilots and SAR Tech, that will go away and pay will fuse with allowance.



I don’t have a good defence for that. This subj has been debated internally at a few WGs I was on that were talking about Spec 2, Spec 1 and if there was a need to consider different pay for ground vice flying positions. The consensus seemed to end up at “good luck getting people into ground posns if they lose Spec and AIRCRA and believe they’d have any GAFF left”.

Don't get me wrong, I get why you guys keep it. And I don't bemoan people who have it. But to be mad that CAF didn't up a Spec level so you take out on those making less than you speaks volumes of a person's character.

We did get a EI, just not the same % as Std folks, OR Spec 2. I say throw rocks at those Spec 2 money hogs!

Personally? My best 5 just took a positive jump, my wife is happy.



I totally agree. Seriously.

I’d be supportive of standard, Spec 1 and 2 being revamped. Maybe Standard, Enhanced and Operational pay rates or soemthin.

Cpl, MMT, posted to 12 Wing clothing stores? Standard. Same mbr posted to HMCS? Operational.

AES Op MWO posted to 402 Sqn? Enhanced. Posted to CFLRS? Standard. Posted to 407 flying position? Operational.

Something like that might be a start.

If the MWO ASEOP and Cook are doing exactly the same job, CFLRS CSM, why aren't they paid the same ?

We already have SDA to compensate for environmental duties on ship. Vice shore base jobs.

Why throw rocks at anyone but yourselves ? You're either not as "Spec" are you think, or your trade failed to express the justification well enough to get upgraded.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Cooks, day in and day out, perform tasks that if improperly done will render entire units ineffective (aka "everyone's stuck in the shitters").

True. Still, not the same risk. I’m going to assume the Cook Cpl is being supervised. The AES Op Cpl could be the A cat and in charge of AES Ops up to the rank of MWO B Cat during flying operations and responsible for their trg and upgrading. That’s not malarkey, rank has nothing to do with flying categories - the FOM is clear on that.

The potential responsibility and environment that happens in for the two trades aren’t comparable.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I dunno your air crews were pretty demanding on my cooks. They were pretty serious about not getting the shits or pukes in there air.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

If an AES Op goes from 407 Sqn to CFLRS, they just lost AIRCRA, potentially HD, and drop in Spec Pay. That's worse off than now.

Not sure how happy an AES Op would go to a staff job with that disincentive.

I'm pretty sure I know what most peoples' reaction would be to the question "so...how'd you like to go influence young minds" question now...let alone if that was the case.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

All the time. That’s in our SOPs.

 

[dimsum]

True. Still, not the same risk. I’m going to assume the Cook Cpl is being supervised.

Not necessarily. When I was sailing, the Chief Cook on the (admittedly smaller) ship was an LS for most of my time there. She supervised 3 others.

The AES Op Cpl could be the A cat and in charge of AES Ops up to the rank of MWO B Cat during flying operations and responsible for their trg and upgrading. That’s not malarkey, rank has nothing to do with flying categories - the FOM is clear on that.

The potential responsibility and environment that happens in for the two trades aren’t comparable.

OK - at the risk (heh) of throwing yet another wrench, I don't think this stuff falling under Spec Pay is correct/appropriate anymore.

It's more like Hazard/Risk Allowance, obviously not using those terms or the amounts which are already set. Call it "Responsibility Allowance" or something.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

If the MWO ASEOP and Cook are doing exactly the same job, CFLRS CSM, why aren't they paid the same ?

I honestly don't have a different answer than before; I don't have a good defense for that and it makes me wonder if we should have a tier pay system that combines duties/environment/risk that is assigned to positions. Like my earlier example, should a MMT Cpl at Clothing Stores be paid the same "base salary" as one posted to a HMCS, or 8 ACCS and deploying all the time, etc?

We already have SDA to compensate for environmental duties on ship. Vice shore base jobs.

That's the only difference we have between ground/flying positions. That could change...but what i said earlier (standard, enhanced, operational pay levels) won't happen, as much as it might be a big satisfier in the NCM Corps.

Why throw rocks at anyone but yourselves ? You're either not as "Spec" are you think, or your trade failed to express the justification well enough to get upgraded.

I don't think it was any of those, snr CAF leadership had X amount of money allotted and gave all Spec 1 trades a slightly lower EI.

Generally speaking for my trade, it has been noticed that (1) we didn't get included in the pay review like Plt and SAR Tech (2) we didn't get an option to add AIRCRA into base salary for pensionable income (3) we aren't part of the 9 RCAF managed trades that are part of the next pay review and (3) we didn't get the same EI as Standard and Spec 2.

That's not a combo that gives everyone a nice feeling, but I've not heard of anyone actually upset.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Not necessarily. When I was sailing, the Chief Cook on the (admittedly smaller) ship was an LS for most of my time there. She supervised 3 others.

Is that the normal/standard case in the CAF? Or an exception? I honestly don't know, and don't have the Cook Occ Spec on my laptop.

OK - at the risk (heh) of throwing yet another wrench, I don't think this stuff falling under Spec Pay is correct/appropriate anymore.
It's more like Hazard/Risk Allowance, obviously not using those terms or the amounts which are already set. Call it "Responsibility Allowance" or something.

A Cat's supervising B Cats and directing/taking control of the RADAR for Wx avoidance, dense airspace SOF, as a realistic example is exactly what Spec pay should be related to, IMO. "ability to do unsupervised, and to lead others in the task; PL 4 - 5".

 

[Halifax Tar]

I honestly don't have a different answer than before; I don't have a good defense for that and it makes me wonder if we should have a tier pay system that combines duties/environment/risk that is assigned to positions. Like my earlier example, should a MMT Cpl at Clothing Stores be paid the same "base salary" as one posted to a HMCS, or 8 ACCS and deploying all the time, etc?



That's the only difference we have between ground/flying positions. That could change...but what i said earlier (standard, enhanced, operational pay levels) won't happen, as much as it might be a big satisfier in the NCM Corps.



I don't think it was any of those, snr CAF leadership had X amount of money allotted and gave all Spec 1 trades a slightly lower EI.

Generally speaking for my trade, it has been noticed that (1) we didn't get included in the pay review like Plt and SAR Tech (2) we didn't get an option to add AIRCRA into base salary for pensionable income (3) we aren't part of the 9 RCAF managed trades that are part of the next pay review and (3) we didn't get the same EI as Standard and Spec 2.

That's not a combo that gives everyone a nice feeling, but I've not heard of anyone actually upset.

Truthfully I don't think that cook cares. I think you folks with the spec levels think more about us not having it than we do about you having it.

I can tell you, I don't look at the other CPO2 MMTs in my AOR and wonder who has an easier job. Sometimes you get jammy goes and sometimes you get shit goes. The job I'm in is not sought after... And I was very upset going there coming off a successful french course. But turns out this has to be one best jobs I've ever had. I'm a big big fan of the Army Reserve now.

Again looking at what other people make seems to be a thing done more in the Spec world. I've never seen it on this side, but then again we are the low rung. Happy peasants.

 

[Lumber]

Truthfully I don't think that cook cares. I think you folks with the spec levels think more about us not having it than we do about you having it.

I can tell you, I don't look at the other CPO2 MMTs in my AOR and wonder who has an easier job. Sometimes you get jammy goes and sometimes you get shit goes. The job I'm in is not sought after... And I was very upset going there coming off a successful french course. But turns out this has to be one best jobs I've ever had. I'm a big big fan of the Army Reserve now.

Again looking at what other people make seems to be a thing done more in the Spec world. I've never seen it on this side, but then again we are the low rung. Happy peasants.

Can someone explain to me the difference between Spec 1 and Spec 2, and also what being "spec 1" really means, or is supposed to mean?

I ask because, I was once in charge of leading a re-write of a QSP for a course. The QSP and the execution of this course was, upon review, fucking trash, and I'm not exaggerating. I looked at what was being taught, discussed with people in the trade, and then asked the question "Why do we even have this course? The first week isn't needed, the next two weeks the students are being trained to do something that isn't actually their job, and the last two weeks, while relevant, has no way of being effectively taught. The students are learning most of the things they need by just doing the job after the course."

So I recommended we just get rid of that whole course altogether and merge the TPs into the QL courses before and after.

And the trade lost their SHIT at that suggestion because that course was tied to their spec pay. No course = no spec pay.

Except no one was coming off that course as a "specialist" let me tell you that. I will quote one student from their post course review: "I am a worse XXXXX (trade) now for having taken this course."

Now, the course is somewhat better now, but I still wouldn't call those who come off of it "specialists".

 

[Quirky]

"They can occasionally enjoy ... being able to go out and have a meal and breathe a little bit easier." - Brig.-Gen. Virginia Tattersall via CBC News

Hold on a minute here, not only do these kids get 25 days off, but they also enjoy the occasional meal out?
NOT ON MY WATCH!

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Truthfully I don't think that cook cares. I think you folks with the spec levels think more about us not having it than we do about you having it.

Not all spec trades, maybe some. I know there's a known level of discontent in the air maint trades in recent years. I can speak for myself though; if trade X suddenly gets spec pay that didn't before...that has zero influence on my pay or pension so I'd say "BZ!" to them. It's like if someone from the Flt Engr trade gets promoted before me...why would that upset me? Zero relation to me.

I can tell you, I don't look at the other CPO2 MMTs in my AOR and wonder who has an easier job. Sometimes you get jammy goes and sometimes you get shit goes. The job I'm in is not sought after... And I was very upset going there coming off a successful french course. But turns out this has to be one best jobs I've ever had. I'm a big big fan of the Army Reserve now.

Again looking at what other people make seems to be a thing done more in the Spec world. I've never seen it on this side, but then again we are the low rung. Happy peasants.

There's some of it, for sure and I've heard it. Mostly from Direct Entries, the remuster folks know the score.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Can someone explain to me the difference between Spec 1 and Spec 2, and also what being "spec 1" really means, or is supposed to mean?

Pay overview for the military - Canada.ca

Pay group and factors that determine pay for the Canadian Armed Forces.

www.canada.ca

There are 3 sub-groups for non-commissioned members. Pay rates vary in each sub-group:

• Standard
• Specialist 1
• Specialist 2

Specialist 1 and Specialist 2 sub-groups include occupations that have factors and elements that require a more specialized skillset than other non-commissioned member occupations.

this is the only "CAF explaination" I've ever seen.

I ask because, I was once in charge of leading a re-write of a QSP for a course. The QSP and the execution of this course was, upon review, fucking trash, and I'm not exaggerating. I looked at what was being taught, discussed with people in the trade, and then asked the question "Why do we even have this course? The first week isn't needed, the next two weeks the students are being trained to do something that isn't actually their job, and the last two weeks, while relevant, has no way of being effectively taught. The students are learning most of the things they need by just doing the job after the course."

So I recommended we just get rid of that whole course altogether and merge the TPs into the QL courses before and after.

And the trade lost their SHIT at that suggestion because that course was tied to their spec pay. No course = no spec pay.

Except no one was coming off that course as a "specialist" let me tell you that. I will quote one student from their post course review: "I am a worse XXXXX (trade) now for having taken this course."

Now, the course is somewhat better now, but I still wouldn't call those who come off of it "specialists".

The requirement for Spec pay is Cpl with a QL5 qual (my trade) but remainder are listed here:

Pay rates for Specialist Non-Commissioned Member - Regular Force and Class C Reserve Service - Canada.ca

Pay rates for Non-Commissioned Members specialists in the Canadian Armed Forces

www.canada.ca

WRT "no one was a specialist"; for LRP AES Ops, they come off their QL5 with a Basic Category and go immediately onto a 18-24 month OJTP. New on Sqn, they aren't doing anything on the aircraft unsupervised at that point, except Respond to Emergencies, and have crossed the Spec threshold. They still are legally authorized to hold a flying position on a crew but they're not left alone.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Not all spec trades, maybe some. I know there's a known level of discontent in the air maint trades in recent years. I can speak for myself though; if trade X suddenly gets spec pay that didn't before...that has zero influence on my pay or pension so I'd say "BZ!" to them. It's like if someone from the Flt Engr trade gets promoted before me...why would that upset me? Zero relation to me.

There's some of it, for sure and I've heard it. Mostly from Direct Entries, the remuster folks know the score.

I dunno. I've been doing this peasant trade for 23 years and never heard that we should spec pay but those (insert trade here) shouldn't.

Infact anyone I've heard bring up spec pay for us all gets laughed out of the room by us.

 

[PuckChaser]

Hold on a minute here, not only do these kids get 25 days off, but they also enjoy the occasional meal out?
NOT ON MY WATCH!

 

[dimsum]

Hold on a minute here, not only do these kids get 25 days off, but they also enjoy the occasional meal out?
NOT ON MY WATCH!

FFS - if you're going to quote, quote it in context.

Tattersall said the new benefit is going to make life easier for military members struggling to get by.

"They're not going to sort of have to be scrimping just to be able to afford the basics," she said. "They can occasionally enjoy ... being able to go out and have a meal and breathe a little bit easier."

CAF Reddit has posts of folks not being able to afford anything, even meals out, because of housing. So "an occasional meal out" seems insignificant for most of us on this forum, but the quote was to explain that it is a financial raise from before.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Can someone explain to me the difference between Spec 1 and Spec 2, and also what being "spec 1" really means, or is supposed to mean?

I ask because, I was once in charge of leading a re-write of a QSP for a course. The QSP and the execution of this course was, upon review, fucking trash, and I'm not exaggerating. I looked at what was being taught, discussed with people in the trade, and then asked the question "Why do we even have this course? The first week isn't needed, the next two weeks the students are being trained to do something that isn't actually their job, and the last two weeks, while relevant, has no way of being effectively taught. The students are learning most of the things they need by just doing the job after the course."

So I recommended we just get rid of that whole course altogether and merge the TPs into the QL courses before and after.

And the trade lost their SHIT at that suggestion because that course was tied to their spec pay. No course = no spec pay.

Except no one was coming off that course as a "specialist" let me tell you that. I will quote one student from their post course review: "I am a worse XXXXX (trade) now for having taken this course."

Now, the course is somewhat better now, but I still wouldn't call those who come off of it "specialists".

I haven't the foggyist idea what the metric is for getting spec pay 1 or 2. I know I look at the Naval Engineering trades and go, yup that makes sense. Then I look at the Naval Ops trades go, that seems like a stretch. But meah. I have no dog in those fights.

 

[Quirky]

but the quote was to explain that it is a financial raise from before.

I’m glad the GOFOs are so generous that they fought for a peasantry night out and call it a benefit. Not only that, they are stupid enough to brag about a $30m “savings” after all this without providing any context.

The redditers are completely obliterating this so-called “benefit”. The releases count in MM DB has jumped up noticeably in the past two days, the next week or two will be the real count once files are entered into the system. 130 GOFOs and this is the best they count come up with, this is an utter failure.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

What is a releases count in MM DB?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I’m glad the GOFOs are so generous that they fought for a peasantry night out and call it a benefit. Not only that, they are stupid enough to brag about a $30m “savings” after all this without providing any context.

The redditers are completely obliterating this so-called “benefit”. The releases count in MM DB has jumped up noticeably in the past two days, the next week or two will be the real count once files are entered into the system. 130 GOFOs and this is the best they count come up with, this is an utter failure.

You know what? I've been out for 35 friggin' years and even I know that GOFO's have no control over pay purse strings,.......and you're serving somewhere in "an important" position?? Hmmmm....