Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]

[Quirky]

I’m not sure why you thought my post was funny about supply. If you think all they do is bin rat stuff then I would say you have no idea what you are talking about. I’m not saying they should be spec pay types but they play a far greater role than you give them credit for in that trade.

I'm not demeaning their role in the overall machine. I used their trade as an example of the decreasing pay divide between them and spec trades. Increasing their pay without increasing, proportionally, spec 1 trades, shows the CAF doesn't see the same value in spec 1 trades. People will see the small pay difference vs overall responsibility and just not bother with spec 1 trades anymore.

 

[CountDC]

Thus why we see PLD disappearing; if it had been reviewed and revised every year like it was supposed to, it would still be a thing.

The explanation I got when in Ottawa and TPLD was introduced was that TB wanted to get rid of PLD completely so revising wasn't an option as they wouldn't approve it. This might explain some of why it took so long to reach the stage we have.

 

[mariomike]

Nothing get's people on board like denigrating other occupations, when you clearly know nothing about them.

I worked for an employer with many occupations.

Sometimes someone would say, "Ours doesn't have it, so their's shouldn't either."

I figured, if they have it – why don't we?

We were all crabs in the same bucket. It's not a race to the bottom.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Edmonton deserved PLD when it first came out. Edmonton doesn't need PLD anymore when you compare other markets. Cold Lake got a small fraction of what Edmonton got even though the markets were the same, that wasn't fair. Troops losing money after all this isn't right.



'A level' and aircraft releaser for 15+ years combined and the CAF puts my skills and experience at 8% more value over someone stocking socks and shirts. Time to re-muster to MMT and take the small paycut so I don't have to deal with the headache and responsibility of releasing dozens of aircraft every week. MMT probably has better civilian job prospects than AME anyway.

Utter stupidity.

If people are unhappy they should quit and not look back. Around 10-15 years ago the big joke when troops would release was that they would come crawling back to the CAF. I remember one guy VR'd twice and came back a 3rd time.

I'd say 10 out of the last 10 people I know who have did (non-medical) VR/4C releases all 10 of them are flying high and loving their life. Just heard back from a young troop who released. He's got about 20 years less in the military than me and in less than a year he's making $20K-$30K more than me. Just wild.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I always wanted a skill and qual based pay structure in the skills trades that tops you up for more responsibility. Right now there is no incentive to run around and fix problems (aircraft) when you can make the same cleaning floors and holding down the tool control section.



Supply isn't in the same league of responsibility and accountability as spec 1 trades. Not even close. Not 8% close.

Right now Im responsible for planning, organizing and am the SME on the sustainment of a CBG. Before that I was responsible to the CO of ship and given the responsibility of making sure we were in all respects ready to sustain his ship on operations.

I've managed vast numbers of personnel and been responsible for hundreds of millions of dollars in materials.

I would argue your lack of understanding of the concept and role of sustainment is highly visible at this moment, you're adrift way outside your lanes.

To close, we're all cogs in the wheel mon ami. Remember, your ability to fix those airplanes comes from the various logistics functions that provides you the ability to complete your task.

 

[Remius]

Right now Im responsible for planning, organizing and am the SME on the sustainment of a CBG. Before that I was responsible to the CO of ship and given the responsibility of making sure we were in all respects ready to sustain his ship on operations.

I've managed vast numbers of personnel and been responsible for hundreds of millions of dollars in materials.

I would argue your lack of understanding of the concept and role of sustainment is highly visible at this moment, you're adrift way outside your lanes.

To close, we're all cogs in the wheel mon ami. Remember, your ability to fix those airplanes comes from the various logistics functions that provides you the ability to complete your task.

Pretty sure we can still have a military without an airforce. But we cannot have a military without a supply and logistics system.

Like I said I am not a supply type. But i have had enough exposure in the Mat Management world of two departments to know that it a far more complex world than most people know or appreciate. Sustainment, procurement, support, life cycle management etc. Not just at the tactical and unit level but also at the strategic level. Then add all the extra stuff like hazardous materials, DRIMS etc and you end up with way more than just bin rats. You end up with experts in supply chain management and logistics. People that get big bucks civy side to do that sort of thing.

 

[dapaterson]

The explanation I got when in Ottawa and TPLD was introduced was that TB wanted to get rid of PLD completely so revising wasn't an option as they wouldn't approve it. This might explain some of why it took so long to reach the stage we have.

Approval vested at TB makes decisions inherently political.

The new model, with adjustments delegated to TBS, makes the changes bureaucratic. An improvement.

I'm pretty sure that the folks in DGCB working this file must have interesting stories, which are covered by Cabinet Confidence, so are not releasable.

 

[CountDC]

From Reddit:

‘Once this comes in, I’m going to probably be making the same as I am now with losing pld. The true pay raise will be from the civvy union raise, which will probably be a fail too.’

There are still a shocking number of people who think that this raise is just the ‘pre-raise’ for the real one coming after the unions finish negotiating. Sharp messaging there, shipmates…

maybe it is because that is the message received in many briefings that are happening. I am glad my mic was turned off when it was emphasized more than once in the online brief I attended. message is that this is not a pay raise. When the unions settle we will receive our matching pay raise as normal. IE they settle for 2% a year we will get another 2% a year. I for one am not banking on that happening as much as I would like to see it. At best I believe we might get a small adjustment to bring us up to their level in total. This is another kettle they will have to deal with as anyone that was around back in 2000 I think when an alignment adjustment was made and the civilian workers reacted to the military getting multiple increases in one year. I swear it was more tense at work than when they were on strike.

 

[Quirky]

Pretty sure we can still have a military without an airforce. But we cannot have a military without a supply and logistics system.

Pretty sure we don't need the military supply and logistics system if the military didn't exist.

Remember, your ability to fix those airplanes comes from the various logistics functions that provides you the ability to complete your task.

If your logistics fail and I don't get a part, we wait. If the job I do fails then someone could die. There is a reason why pilots make more than the techs, their levels of risk and responsibility are different. Both need each other to do the job. Society values their employees based on the skills and education they acquire over time and pay them adequately acknowledging the risks their jobs pose. Military doesn't always work that way as shown with a rank-based pay scale rather than skills or trade. With this logic, why bother having separate pay scales for a Capt Pilot and Capt Infantry? Might as well pay them the same since they both have important jobs....

If people are unhappy they should quit and not look back. Around 10-15 years ago the big joke when troops would release was that they would come crawling back to the CAF. I remember one guy VR'd twice and came back a 3rd time.

People need to take control of their own lives, that hasn't changed since the beginning of time.

 

[mariomike]

But we cannot have a military without a supply and logistics system.

General Eisenhower put it this way,

In any war, there are two tremendous tasks. That of the combat troops is to fight the enemy. That of the supply troops is to furnish all the material to insure victory. The faster and farther the combat troops advance against the foe, the greater becomes the battle of supply.

 

[Remius]

Pretty sure we don't need the military supply and logistics system if the military didn't exist.

So, yeah…duh. But like I said. We could get rid of our entire airforce and still have an army. But without logistics and supply you get nothing. It’s not a chicken or egg thing you are trying to say. It’s quite literally an essentialcondition

If your logistics fail and I don't get a part, we wait. If the job I do fails then someone could die. There is a reason why pilots make more than the techs, their levels of risk and responsibility are different. Both need each other to do the job. Society values their employees based on the skills and education they acquire over time and pay them adequately acknowledging the risks their jobs pose. Military doesn't always work that way as shown with a rank-based pay scale rather than skills or trade. With this logic, why bother having separate pay scales for a Capt Pilot and Capt Infantry? Might as well pay them the same since they both have important jobs....

And yet you failed to explain that without having to besmirch something you have no real demonstrated depth or knowledge of.

No one is arguing your point about spec pay for your trade. They arguing your casual dismissal of the supply world, your lack of understanding the actual levels of accountability and responsibility that exists there.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

This tale is as old as time.

When Compensation and Benefits are adjusted, everyone comes out swinging with their own confirmation biases validating why they should be paid more than others; that's everyone in every element, trade, tech, support, operations, officer, NCO, and NCM.

It's like listening to the cow explain why the farmer should eat the chickens first because they make milk, the chickens saying they should eat the cow because they lay eggs, and the horse braying that they can't be eaten... until things are dire.

The farmer knows the value of all of them, but still needs to eat.

 

[Eaglelord17]

The whole point in spec pay has nothing to do with skill levels or which is more important. Its about availability of said skills and how much the civvy market pays for them.

It was created so high demand trades would be compensated closer to what the civilian market pays those people. The question shouldn’t be am I doing that job for 8% more than the standard rate, rather what is the civilian market rate for said job.

For many aircraft trades the Spec 1 would be very similar to the civilian market with this change. Average for most aircraft mechanics is low to mid 30s. When you break down the CAF spec 1 cpl rate at the lowest level based on a 2k hour work year you get approximately 39$ a hour.

Obviously not 100% accurate as that 2000 hour is likely low and doesn’t include such factors as mandatory overtime, random postings, etc. just showing how it isn’t as out of wack as it could be. Some trades should be reevaluated much higher for spec pay, some could likely lose the spec for what there trade is paying civvy side.

Vehicle Techs being a excellent example of a trade that should get spec pay as their wages are equivalent to a aircraft tech, and in many cases worth more civvy side as there is a lot of work that would be heavy diesel mechanic work civvy side (think 40+$ a hour).

 

[dapaterson]

Keep in mind that compensation includes elements that don't directly flow into an individual's pockets, things like employer contributions to pensions, medical benefits etc etc.

 

[Halifax Tar]

This tale is as old as time.

When Compensation and Benefits are adjusted, everyone comes out swinging with their own confirmation biases validating why they should be paid more than others; that's everyone in every element, trade, tech, support, operations, officer, NCO, and NCM.

It's like listening to the cow explain why the farmer should eat the chickens first because they make milk, the chickens saying they should eat the cow because they lay eggs, and the horse braying that they can't be eaten... until things are dire.

The farmer knows the value of all of them, but still needs to eat.

It's a real detriment in my mind. We get so tribal.

IMHO the Infantry deserve more than a pilot or a sailor. But I don't get to decide these things.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

It's a real detriment in my mind. We get so tribal.

IMHO the Infantry deserve more than a pilot or a sailor. But I don't get to decide these things.

We get that compensation through Pain and Suffering Comp with VAC. 45% and counting

 

[Quirky]

Vehicle Techs being a excellent example of a trade that should get spec pay as their wages are equivalent to a aircraft tech

Civy aviation world pay is a joke, not disputing that, but again the difference in pay is the risk and responsibility. You can’t just pull over to the side of the cloud. If the CAF wants to pay veh techs spec, great! Make the entry requirements the same as spec trades and away you go.

They arguing your casual dismissal of the supply world, your lack of understanding the actual levels of accountability and responsibility that exists there.

A Cpl changing the engine on an aircraft is worth more than 8% pay difference than a Cpl handing out ruck sacks. If that’s the value the CAF puts on its people then the retention numbers will eventually speak for themselves.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I don't see where you're going with this.

Edmonton is losing PLD, Pet never had it. Pet troops are getting a straight-up pay raise, while Edmonton troops will be getting a pay cut, or a lower pay raise.

I'm in Ottawa, I'm one of the people that's making out like a bandit from this, so I'm not coming at this from a personal gain/loss perspective. In reality, come 1 July a S04 Cpl posted to Ottawa will make $20 more a month than I do as a S03 PO 1 right now.

Seriously? SMH

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Based on your experience as a MMT?

Spec trades aren't the only ones with responsibilities. Playing that game just turns into a back and forth of "I'm more important than you", which goes nowhere.

But they aren’t going to navigate a 4 engine aircraft thru thunderstorms en route to the op area/search area/etc either. A Jnr NCM in my trade can - it’s laid out in the JTAR and QS, etc. When the weather shit hits the fan, the flight deck are going where RADAR points them.

The level of responsibility, technical and tactical knowledge isn’t the same. It’s not a “importance” equation.

Current best example? SAR Tech

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Right now Im responsible for planning, organizing and am the SME on the sustainment of a CBG. Before that I was responsible to the CO of ship and given the responsibility of making sure we were in all respects ready to sustain his ship on operations.

I've managed vast numbers of personnel and been responsible for hundreds of millions of dollars in materials.

I would argue your lack of understanding of the concept and role of sustainment is highly visible at this moment, you're adrift way outside your lanes.

To close, we're all cogs in the wheel mon ami. Remember, your ability to fix those airplanes comes from the various logistics functions that provides you the ability to complete your task.

This is an example of where pay based on rank and trade alone fails.

Some trades make allowance and compensation for enhanced knowledge and responsibility; AC Op comes to mind. Most are Standard pay, but AC Ops who qualify as PAR controllers (precision approach radar) move to Spec 1.

In my mind, a MMT Snr NCM on a HMCS is different than a MMT Snr NCM on a Wing. There should be a “level up” allowance based on responsibility.