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All Things Cuba (Castro, politics, etc.)

This is getting confusing: I thought your claim was that the Americans pushed Cuba into the arms of the Soviets ...

Definetly was pushing at the Americans, who were pushing back it seems trying to call his bluff, and the soviets saw opportunism and jumped on.

Ahh yes, find discredited old Marxist propaganda, strike out "proletariat" and "bourgeoisie", replace with "third world" and "imperialist American capitalist pigs" and abracadabra new economic theory (and only theoretical assumption required is to equate capitalism with mercantilism)!   And to think that all these years I've been thinking it was the industrial

The industrial revolution, come on, you mean to tell me you think that the industrial revolution could happen in todays world of 9-5, unions etc.?
If you're not going to concede that than you're being as difficult as I am here.
I would say Marxism was viable before the unions etc. because the workers were being seriously exploited as labour without regards to any of the non-existent labour laws.
AND, in Latin America such labour laws were unheard of, as Acorn has pointed out.
Look at the history of Cuba and you'll see a lot of exploitation by the Spanish first than companies like United Fruit which couldn't grow the crops and couldn't use the labour like they could use a bunch of Creoles and "Freed" slaves.
The fact is that all over LATAM at the time massive exploitation was occuring (And it could be argued in some places it still does)

I can't even remember what the discussion is about anymore and obviously none of us are going to budge so I see no point in arguing circles and semantics.
 
I've never before heard of calling someone's bluff as pushing them into someone else's arms (more like not allowing yourself to be taken advantage-of) ... seems like an awfully weak argument to me ... anyway ...

I will let it rest, but before I walk away from the discussion I will point out that the Asian Tigers industrialized very rapidly and very successfully in the latter half of the 20th Century and it had nothing to do with Nationalization of private industry & property, pre-existing social conditions, warmed-over Marxism or griping about real or perceived historical grievances: rather, it had everything to do with Private Property Rights, building on existiing trade relationships and free mobility of capital and labour.  ;D
 
Rapid industrialization and advancement up to the leading edge should be expected.  It's much easier to follow in someone's footsteps.  The issue is to identify the impediments.  There is plenty of capital floating around out there looking for a labour pool and markets.
 
Alright, Without arguing for or against I just want to clarify.
I question whether comparing Asia to Cuba is apt, but I want to hear your points expanded.

Private Property Rights,
Who owns the property?

building on existiing trade relationships
With whom?

free mobility of capital and labour
Expand please.

pre-existing social conditions,
So your contention is that social conditions have no impact on the economy?

griping about real or perceived historical grievances
Once again this is where i have issue in Comparing Cuba to Asia.
And if you're going to tell me that the Asian industrial workers are better off I do want to see some examples.
 
One thing to remember about the growth of the Asian Tigers is that democracy was only addressed once it had a firm framework of civil society to be rested upon - for the most part, states like South Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore existed under strong, undemocratic (in our sense of the word) regimes; call it benevolent dictatorship.

None of this foistering democracy at the end of a bayonet crap that we are seeing in Afghanistan and Iraq.
 
I wonder how Castro can "get rid of the Yankee dollar" - the real currency in Cuba is
the U.S. Dollar. If you want a Coca Cola with your excellent Havana Club rum, the
Coke was made in Panama, shipped in by Container ship, and paid for in US dollars
- Cuban money is unacceptable to Cuba's suppliers, it is also unacceptable in virtually
all the bars, cafes, restaurants, clubs, and for "tourist purchases' - under Castro, the
Cuban economy, which could have been the best in the southern western Hemisphere
has been a disaster. The street kids used to sell Cuban money which featured the
likeness of President Batista - a lot of tourists got sucked into purchasing the "Batista
Bucks" not aware of Cuban history, post 1958. Our associates and I met a lot of Cubans
-great people, smart, looking for the day when the political situation changes. The US
would be smart to lift the Cuban embargo, and wait for Castro to go to Communist
heaven, and open the doors for Cuban/U.S./Canadian trade. MacLeod
 
Che said:
Alright, Without arguing for or against I just want to clarify.
I question whether comparing Asia to Cuba is apt, but I want to hear your points expanded.

Who owns the property?

Individuals and corporations, both foreign and domestic.


(Trade) With whom?

Their imperialist overlords (the West).

(mobility of capital and labour) Expand please.
I'm not sure how to: individuals can move, quit and apply for work basically at will: there is no authoritarian imposition on who can be hired or fired.  Similarly, individuals (again both domestic and foreign) are (mostly) free to invest their wealth in whatever ways that they see fit.


So your contention is that social conditions have no impact on the economy?

No, but I would argue that there is not any particular pre-existing social condition necessary to realize the benefit of economic liberalization.  More importantly, economic liberalization almost inevitably leads to social/political liberalization.


Once again this is where i have issue in Comparing Cuba to Asia.
And if you're going to tell me that the Asian industrial workers are better off I do want to see some examples.

Dude, are you for real?  Per capita GDP (PPP - USD):
#16  Hong Kong    $27,200
#26  Singapore      $25,200
#39  South Korea  $19,200
#48  Taiwan          $18,000
#83  Malaysia        $  8,800
WORLD AVERAGE  $ 7,900
And ...
#152 (Socialist Worker's Paradise) Cuba $ 2,700 (not even close!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita

Note: the above is a llittle misleading as all of the Asian economies have a much broader distribution of wealth than in Cuba where it is much more concentrated (i.e., in the hands of our pal, Fidel).
 
Take a moment gentlemen, and read Journalist Peter Worthington in today's Toronto
Sun, focused on a recent CBC "version" of Cuba, the worker's paradise, Toronto Sun
October 30, 2004. MacLeod
 
I thought it was worth posting.



Bush an easy target for Cuba

By PETER WORTHINGTON -- For the Toronto Sun


CBC Radio's Anna-Marie Tremonti kicked off this last week of the U.S. presidential campaign by interviewing a woman in Cuba about George W. Bush.

The woman said she was speaking personally, and regarded Bush as something of a gangster, a thug who was filled with mischief towards her country. Anna-Marie went on to document how difficult it was to live in Cuba under the U.S. embargo ("blockade" is the word she used, if I remember correctly).

The woman's pension ran to $4 a month, while that of her husband, a sporadically unemployed taxi driver, was the equivalent of $6 a month.
 

Apart from the anti-American flavour, it was an enlightening program that created a thoroughly misleading impression: That Cuba's shortcomings were somehow linked to America's economic boycott of Cuba. This is a widely shared view, but utterly false.

The U.S. may not trade with Cuba, but every other country in the world is free to do so.

America's boycott should be -- and is -- opportunity for others. Canada, for instance, is a thriving partner with Cuba on various ventures.

Travel in Cuba and you see the Canadian flag flown alongside the Cuban one at various projects. Go to Cuba as a tourist -- a relatively inexpensive holiday -- and resort tables are loaded with food for visitors from all over the world, especially Europe.

This opulence while Cuban citizens scratch for food and stretch their ration cards.

In short, the deprivation that exists in Cuba is homegrown, and the fault of the socio-communist system it practices. Goodness -- a country renowned for producing sugar has to ration sugar to citizens!

Like most Canadians, I think the U.S. is nuts to maintain its economic boycott of Cuba. U.S. policy just feeds the myth that it is responsible for Cuban poverty.

In fact, Cuba is the most politically repressed country in the Western hemisphere. Where 20 years ago most of Latin America was deemed by the respected Freedom House to be "unfree" or "partly free," today most of South America is "free" and evolving towards greater democracy.

Not Cuba.

Although Cubans who escape their regime are arguably the only genuine political refugees in the Western hemisphere, Canada insists of viewing Cubans who seek asylum here as "economic" refugees, and liable for deportation.

A curse of being a profitable partner with a Cuban dictator.

Until this week, Cubans accepted the U.S. dollar as de facto currency, as well as the less-valued peso. No longer. Fidel Castro has decided that all dollars held by Cubans must be exchanged for pesos, with a 10% surcharge to the state. As well as a quick tax, this will also mean more hardships for Cubans (and relatives in the U.S. who send money in Cuba).

It will encourage a blackmarket in currency and is yet another indictment against the regime. While there's no overt revolutionary spirit in Cuba, it is generally accepted that when Fidel dies, changes will occur. But not until then.

It's too bad Anna-Marie Tremonti's voyage of discovery to Cuba couldn't have explored why it has failed so wretchedly to live up to the promise of revolution nearly 45 years ago. Instead, in the parts I heard, an impression was created that its hardships were another reason to hope a new U.S. president is elected Nov. 2. Sorry, Anna-Marie, but I'll bet a pina colada that Dubya is returned to the White House more substantially than he was in 2000.

 
Castro, 81, said in a statement to the country that he would not seek a new presidential term

"To my dear compatriots, who gave me the immense honor in recent days of electing me a member of parliament ... I communicate to you
that I will not aspire to or accept -- I repeat not aspire to or accept -- the positions of President of Council of State and Commander in Chief," Castro
said in the statement published on the Web site of the Communist Party's Granma newspaper. The National Assembly or legislature is expected to
nominate his brother and designated successor Raul Castro as president in place of Castro, who has not appeared in public for almost 19 months
after being stricken by an undisclosed illness.

His retirement drew the curtain on a political career that spanned the Cold War and survived U.S. enmity, CIA assassination attempts and the demise
of Soviet Communism. A charismatic leader famous for his long speeches delivered in his green military fatigues, Castro is admired in the Third World
for standing up to the United States but considered by his opponents a tyrant who suppressed freedom.
 
Figured this was coming. I really think that the Cuban people will take the steps for Democracy.
 
      I am hoping for the Cuban people that Democracy will help  pave the road to their new future . Than maybe they can have the embargo lifted on Cuba at the same time . 
 
With Fidel officially stepping down & younger brother Raoul being not too far behind, Cuba is about to face "a new day" sometime soon!.

There will be thousands of Cuban Americans clamoring to influence Cuban politics in the hope of influencing changes and possibly getting their hands on what was once theirs, or at least their grnad-parents.

The American embargo has been a total failure.  If anything, it has forced Cuban authorities to look elsewhere for friends and partners.  Countries like Spain, Venezuela and Canada have firmly entrenched themselves in Cuba... Way to go Dubya!
 
I think Castro has died and all of this is typical of a dictatorship that is in the process of transitioning to new leadership. In the near term I dont see any changes in store for the Cuban people. Maybe when the old guard dies off ....
 
geo said:
With Fidel officially stepping down & younger brother Raoul being not too far behind, Cuba is about to face "a new day" sometime soon!.

There will be thousands of Cuban Americans clamoring to influence Cuban politics in the hope of influencing changes and possibly getting their hands on what was once theirs, or at least their grnad-parents.

The American embargo has been a total failure.  If anything, it has forced Cuban authorities to look elsewhere for friends and partners.  Countries like Spain, Venezuela and Canada have firmly entrenched themselves in Cuba... Way to go Dubya!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba

The United States embargo against Cuba (described in Cuba as el bloqueo, Spanish for "the blockade") is an economic, commercial, and financial embargo imposed on Cuba on February 7, 1962.

Way to go Jack Kennedy!
 
It'll be very interesting to see what happens... particularily to see if the US reaches out.
 
Any outreach done by the US will be done at the behest of the Cuban exiles that are Miami.
Given what they want - to reclaim what was once theirs - there is fat chance that they will accept any outreach from Dubya.
Hugo Chavez is happy to tweak at the US and provides aid to Cuba.
 
Thucydides said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba

Way to go Jack Kennedy!

I noticed that as well. ;D
 
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