All things Charlottesville (merged)

[mariomike]

Nope

You brought up, "the Irish experience from 1169" in the Charlottesville thread. I assumed you had a reason.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Its all born out of this quote, underlines part.

They were presidents. 

Historians agree that there was widespread sentiment against New York Governor Al Smith, who was Irish Catholic ( and, like Kennedy, a Democrat ), in the 1928 US presidential election.
https://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/10/when-a-catholic-terrified-the-heartland/?mcubz=0

If your point is that Irish Catholics also suffered discrimination?

I would agree. But, I would not say that makes a moral equivalence to what African-Americans experienced.

Which morphed into:

Really? If you are referring to indentured servitude than its not equivalent to slavery .

And then:

I think you need to do some reading on the Irish experience from 1169 (English/Norman invasions) onward.  These people were violently; and with extreme prejudice, oppressed on their own land by a foreign power for hundreds of years.  The victimhood of racism isn't solely owned by races and colors other than white.

You cannot discuss the Irish in America with out digging into the roots of the emigration from Erin and the Irish diaspora.  Not to mention the Irish Catholics, during the Potatoe Famine and US Civil War, were not exactly welcome on the shores of the USA unless they were to be used as fodder for the US Civil War.

From there you brought in the NYPD and FDNY:

No one said anyone is a racist. People are free to vote for the candidate of their choice.

43% of Whites voted for President Obama in 2008.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2008#Voter_demographics

38% of Whites voted for President Obama in 2012.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2012#Voter_demographics

Discrimination suffered by Irish-Americans has been brought into this discussion of race in America.

I agree there has been discrimination against Irish-Americans.

But, in a discussion of race in America, it should be remembered that Irish are part of the White majority.

By the turn of the 20th century, five out of six NYPD officers were Irish born or of Irish descent. As late as the 1960s, 42% of the NYPD were Irish Americans.

Sadly, on September 11, 2001, 40% of the 343 firefighters and paramedics who lost their lives were of Irish background.

There were many men with Irish surnames on my department when I hired on.

The case of discrimination against the Irish in hiring for civil service jobs is not valid, in my opinion.

And that with some more gobble-dee-goop leads us to now...

 

[mariomike]

Its all born out of this quote,

Actually, it's all born out of this quote,

Reply #546

And how many Irish Catholics?

Kennedy.

Reagan doesn't count. He was from California.

The Irish in America may rate a topic of its own.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Actually, it's all born out of this quote,

Reply #546
The Irish in America may rate a topic of its own.

One could argue, as have some noted historians, that America is less 'free' in many ways than Canada because the Yankees won the Revolutionary War. We can thank the 300,000 Canadiens (at the time of the Conquest ) for more or less presenting the UELs - and the British Empire - with a 'multi-cultural fait accompli'.

 

[Old Sweat]

Canada was also far more Irish than was the United States. At the time of Confederation, Irish was the second largest ethnic group, after French, in the Dominion of Canada. I am not sure of the percentages for Roman Catholic and Protestant Irish.

Source: 1871 Census cited in Government of Canada, Sixty Years of Progress 1867-1927, (Ottawa, 1927), 39. The actual figures were 1,082,949 French, 846,414 Irish, 706,369 English and 549,946 Scottish as well as lesser numbers of other gouts.

 

[FJAG]

Not quite Charlottesville but in the same vein.

This is what real leadership looks like.

Head Of Air Force Academy Tells Cadets: ‘You Should Be Outraged’ By Racial Slurs

“If you can’t treat someone with dignity and respect, then you need to get out,” he said.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/air-force-academy-racial-slurs_us_59ce2313e4b05f005d339307?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

:cheers:

 

[mariomike]

“If you can’t treat someone with dignity and respect, then you need to get out,” he said.

Same warning we received as probies from a Deputy Chief back in 1972.

Before turning us loose on the citizens of the City, he reminded us that we were recruited from a society with many prejudices.

"I cannot change your beliefs, but if you treat anyone with disrespect, I can change your employment!”

 

[mariomike]

Saw this in Canadian Politics. Replied here,

White nationalist extremists don't even have to show up to their own rallies anymore to cause shit.T

They cancelled a post-Charlottesville torch rally that was to be held in Charlotte, North Carolina—near a Holocaust Memorial and a statue of Martin Luther King Jr.— due to “security concerns.”
https://www.google.ca/search?q=%22March+Against+Communism%22+charlotte&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-CA%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7GGHP_en-GBCA592&dcr=0&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A9%2F23%2F2017%2Ccd_max%3A&tbm=

Dec. 14, 2017
"Man Who Rammed Crowd at Charlottesville Rally Charged With First-Degree Murder"
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/12/first-degree-murder-charge-for-man-who-killed-heather-heyer.html

 

[mariomike]

An independent review of the events is now available.

The focus is on emergency operations, rather than politics.

QUOTE

March 1, 2018

Final Report,

Lessons learned from protest response in Charlottesville
http://www.charlottesville.org/home/showdocument?id=59615
220 pages.

Key points

•Officials’ last-minute decision to move the location of a controversial rally affected preparations, forcing law enforcement to plan for two locations and confusing communication with the public about the event.
•Local law enforcement did not reach out to other communities that had dealt with similar rallies and protests for guidance.
•Information sharing between state and municipal police was lacking and both entities operated independently, a failure of unified command.
•The Charlottesville Fire Department and University of Virginia Health System operations plans held up, allowing personnel to remove and treat numerous injured people within minutes after a violent attack.

Recommendations for Charlottesville and elsewhere
•Police and fire departments should follow the Incident Command System implemented by the National Incident Management System (NIMS) for future protest events.
•Effective and multi-faceted training is needed for officers directed to protect public safety during protest events, to include first amendment training, deescalation techniques, use of force policies and interagency cooperation.
•State and local law enforcement should be clear about their roles during large protest events, and be sure all personnel understand those roles.
•Information gathering well in advance of large events is vital to planning efforts, and law enforcement agencies should develop means to collect and vet this information.
•Engage all community voices — even dissenting voices — to maintain open communication and build trust.
•Expect evolving conditions and plan contingencies to deal with them.

END QUOTE

 

[kratz]

CTV.ca

It's taken a few months, but the decision is in.

Man who drove into Charlottesville crowd convicted of first-degree murder
Denise Lavoie, The Associated Press
Published Friday, December 7, 2018 5:15PM EST 
Last Updated Friday, December 7, 2018 5:17PM EST 


CHARLOTTESVILLE, Va. - A man who drove his car into a crowd of counterprotesters at a white nationalist rally in Virginia has been convicted of first-degree murder.

In delivering its verdict late Friday afternoon, the jury rejected arguments by lawyers for James Alex Fields Jr. that he acted in self-defence.

Prosecutors said Fields drove his car directly into a crowd of counterprotesters at the "Unite the Right" rally in Charlottesville on Aug. 12, 2017, because he was angry after witnessing earlier violent clashes between the two sides. The rally was held to protest the planned removal of a statue of Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee.

Fields' lawyers told the jury he feared for his life after witnessing the violence.

The 21-year-old Fields of Maumee, Ohio, faces up to life in prison at sentencing.

 

[brihard]

I believe he’s also desperately still facing trial on quite a slew of federal hate crimes charges.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I believe he’s also desperately still facing trial on quite a slew of federal hate crimes charges.

On those charges ...

In a case that stirred racial tensions across the country, a self-avowed white supremacist pleaded guilty (27 Mar 2019) to federal hate crime charges in a deadly attack at a white nationalist rally in Virginia, admitting that he intentionally plowed his speeding car into a crowd of anti-racism protesters, killing a woman and injuring dozens.

James Alex Fields Jr. of Maumee, Ohio, pleaded guilty to 29 of 30 federal charges stemming from the “Unite the Right” rally in Charlottesville on Aug. 12, 2017.

Under a plea agreement, federal prosecutors will not seek the death penalty against Fields and will dismiss the one count that carried death as a possible punishment. The charges he pleaded guilty to call for life in prison under federal sentencing guidelines.

(...)

Under a “statement of facts,” Fields admitted that he “expressed and promoted” white supremacist ideology through his social media accounts and engaged in white supremacist chants during the rally in Charlottesville. He also admitted driving his car into the ethnically diverse crowd of anti-racism protesters because of their race, color, religion or national origin.

(U.S. DIstrict Court Michael) Urbanski scheduled sentencing for July 3 ...

 

[The Bread Guy]

The latest …

The self-professed neo-Nazi who drove his car into a crowd protesting against white supremacists in Charlottesville, Va., killing one of the demonstrators, has been sentenced to life in prison plus 419 years on his first-degree murder conviction.

James Fields Jr., 22, was found guilty by a state court jury last December of murder, plus eight counts of malicious wounding and a hit-and-run offence.

Fields, a resident of Maumee, Ohio, has already received a life sentence without the possibility of parole after pleading guilty in March to federal hate-crime charges stemming from the violence in Charlottesville on April 12, 2017 ...

 

[mariomike]

This was a lively 30-pager. So, readers may be interested in this update from just a few hours ago.

Charlottesville votes to remove 2 Confederate statues

The initial attempt to remove the statue of a Robert E. Lee monument prompted a rally in 2017 that turned deadly.

www.cbsnews.com

The Charlottesville City Council on Monday unanimously voted at a public hearing to remove Confederate statues from two separate parks, according to CBS affiliate WCAV-TV. The two statues depict Confederate Generals Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee.
The first attempt to remove the Lee statue at Court Square Park prompted the deadly "Unite the Right" rally, organized in part by white supremacists and neo-Nazis, in August 2017.

 

[mariomike]

Saw this in the Kamloops thread,

"Traitors"?

As in Confederate Generals?

I see nothing wrong with statues honouring men who fought valiantly and ethically and did their duty well as they saw fit, and I do not agree with removing them - especially by mob.

Looks like the City of Charlottesville, VA is taking care of them - Lee and Jackson. ( See post above. )

Regarding monuments to the Confederacy,

How Did We Treat Monuments to White Supremacists When They Weren’t Our White Supremacists?

As the horrible events of this weekend show, white supremacy is alive and well in the United States, and, once again, a monument to a white supremacist...

slate.com

 

[Eaglelord17]

Considering the fact that the 'De-Nazification' of Germany is basically cultural genocide, I wouldn't be using that as a example of anything in this day and age. Just because most of us agree it was justified, we also thought residential schools and such were too. And if they had been successful we would be sitting here going on about how great they were and how effectively they worked.

I also don't agree with the government having the right to censor people for how they think or what property they choose to own, very slippery slope which ends in police state type controls.

 

[Remius]

Considering the fact that the 'De-Nazification' of Germany is basically cultural genocide, I wouldn't be using that as a example of anything in this day and age.

What? I’m not sure what you mean by that.

 

[Good2Golf]

What? I’m not sure what you mean by that.

I took it to mean “the genocide of the Arian nation”….which is quite a stretch, I think.

 

[Remius]

I took it to mean “the genocide of the Arian nation”….which is quite a stretch, I think.

Agreed. Nazism is a political ideology.

 

[Eaglelord17]

You could easily argue Nazism was one of Germanies ideologies that was sought to be removed. Placing people in a school to 'reeducate' them, followed by tests and questionnaires to ensure they don't possess certain thoughts and beliefs, jailing those they felt did or ostracizing them to prevent them from advancing in life, etc.. certainly fits well within a cultural genocide perspective, reminescent of residental schools, soviet/chinese 're-education' camps, etc.

Ideology is part of culture, trying to remove ideology from a group is trying to destroy part of it. Not saying it wasn't wrong to do so, just that it does pass the litmus test for cultural genocide.