All things Charlottesville (merged)

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Because nobody wanted those jobs.......don't make it seem like anything but that.

 

[mariomike]

Because nobody wanted those jobs.......don't make it seem like anything but that.

FDNY Recruitment Attracts Record 61,000 Candidates
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/FDNY-Recruitment-Attracts-Record-61000-Candidates-130233118.html

Edit to add

I have read each of these three books over the years. All three, and others, show that jobs on the NYPD and FDNY were indeed in very high demand circa 1900. Just as they always have been.

1) Willemse, Cornelius, Behind the Green Lights, (Garden City Publishing Co., 1931)

2) Willemse, Cornelius, A Cop Remembers (E.P. Dutton: 1933)

3) Satan's Circus: Murder, Vice, Police Corruption, and New York's Trial of the Century by Mike Dash

From my reading over the years, jobs on the FDNY and NYPD were in high demand circa 1900, as they are now.

Connections and cash  also helped.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Semantics yes, red herring no. It's semantics, but important semantics. Using the proper vernacular is key in advancing an argument.

As for the Irish, stating that the treatment of the Irish isn't the same as slavery doesn't somehow take away from the treatment of the Irish. Same as black people in Charlottesville being upset about a statue put up during a period of southern revisionism to celebrate or romanticize a slave culture doesn't detract from the Irish experience either. Both can co-exist without detracting from the other.

Vernacular is subjective.  Are you aware not all Caucasians, using todays normal vernacular, are what we would call "White" ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_race

So you would agree with the last line in my post you quoted ?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

FDNY Recruitment Attracts Record 61,000 Candidates
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/FDNY-Recruitment-Attracts-Record-61000-Candidates-130233118.html

Yea...in 2012.  Get a grip, don't post figures from the turn of the  last century and use a link from this century to "prove" something.

 

[mariomike]

Yea...in 2012.  Get a grip, don't post figures from the turn of the  last century and use a link from this century to "prove" something.

I didn't introduce the subject of Irish-Americans into "All things Charlottesville".

And how many Irish Catholics?

I think you need to do some reading on the Irish experience from 1169 (English/Norman invasions) onward. 

"Irish immigrants found employment in the police departments, fire departments and other public services of major cities..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Americans#Police

That was true many years ago, and continues in the present.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Yup.....and if you read down to discrimination you'll see the reason why.  It was low-life public service jobs or go south and get used to "undercut  slave labour."

Let that sink in....

 

[mariomike]

It was low-life public service jobs or go south and get used to "undercut  slave labour."

Let that sink in....

I heard lots of explanations why people - first, second and third generation Irish, and others - decided to apply.
Contribution to society, satisfaction received from helping others, being an active member of the community.
Maybe those things were important to some, maybe not.
Others wanted a job with a future, that was exciting and far from routine, with guaranteed security.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Except they were none of those things at the time.

Your argument is like saying "picking cotton must be really cool, all the  black people down south do it".  :

 

[mariomike]

Except they were none of those things at the time.

They never were, "low-life public service jobs".

Civil service jobs in big city departments always offered- at the very least - employment security, a guaranteed 40-hour week income, benefits and a pension.

That included a union. In the US, NYPD unionised in 1892 and FDNY in 1917.

( In Toronto, police, fire and ambulance have been unionised since 1918. )

Not all jobs offered that in the past, or present.

Your argument is like saying "picking cotton must be really cool, all the  black people down south do it".  :

I won't dignify that with a reply.  :

 

[Halifax Tar]

They never were, "low-life public service jobs".

Civil service jobs in big city departments always offered- at the very least - employment security, a guaranteed 40-hour week income, benefits and a pension.

That included a union. In the US, NYPD unionised in 1892 and FDNY in 1917.

( In Toronto, police, fire and ambulance have been unionised since 1918. )

Not all jobs offered that in the past, or present.



I won't dignify that with a reply.  :

The NYPD traces its history back to 1854 when it took over from a "night watch" system
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_New_York_City_Police_Department

The FDNY goes back to 1648. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Fire_Department

Not sure I would insinuate that these services were always secure employment with benefits and pensions.

Not to mention the hazards that came and continue to come with these professions.

 

[mariomike]

Then NYPD traces its 1854 when it took over from a "night watch" system

FDNY goes back to 1648. 

Not sure I would insinuate that these services were always secure employment with benefits and pensions.

Not to mention the hazards that came and continue to come with these professions.

Who had "secure employment with benefits and pensions." in 1854 and 1648?

There were lots of hazardous professions in 1854 and 1648. There still are.

Insinuate: "Suggest or hint (something bad or reprehensible) in an indirect and unpleasant way."

Not sure I did that. I believe I have been polite.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I heard lots of explanations why people - first, second and third generation Irish, and others - decided to apply.
Contribution to society, satisfaction received from helping others, being an active member of the community.
Maybe those things were important to some, maybe not.
Others wanted a job with a future, that was exciting and far from routine, with guaranteed security.

That sounds like a more modern list of reasons to join.  I'm not sure Mick O'Toole from the Bronx circa 1876 would have the same feelings. 

 

[Halifax Tar]

Who had "secure employment with benefits and pensions." in 1854 and 1648?

There were lots of hazardous professions in 1854 and 1648. There still are.

Insinuate: "Suggest or hint (something bad or reprehensible) in an indirect and unpleasant way."

Not sure I did that. I believe I have been polite.

You are correct and I didn't intend for it to be taken that way.  Perhaps I should have used Hinted or suggested.  My apologies.

 

[mariomike]

That sounds like a more modern list of reasons to join.  I'm not sure Mick O'Toole from the Bronx circa 1876 would have the same feelings.

At least "Mick O'Toole from the Bronx circa 1876" was eligible to apply. And was likely assigned to an Engine or Ladder company.

"William H. Nicholson became the first Black man on November 7, 1898 to join the FDNY. About a month later he was advanced to 4th grade fireman and made $800 a year. Nicholson was assigned to Engine Company 6 in Brooklyn. He faced discrimination, however. When he arrived for duty, orders had been received from fire headquarters that read, “When William H. Nicholson reports for duty, send him to headquarters. He is detailed to the Veterinary Department in Manhattan.” Nicholson worked for the department for 14 years as a horse groom."
http://amsterdamnews.com/news/2017/sep/12/fdny-150/

I remember reading of "black bunks" reserved in FDNY firehouses.

Ref: Firefight: The Century-Long Battle to Integrate New York’s Bravest
By Ginger Adams Otis

That's something "Mick O'Toole from the Bronx" never had to tolerate.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

**Distraction Alert**

 

[Halifax Tar]

At least "Mick O'Toole from the Bronx circa 1876" was eligible to apply. And was likely assigned to an Engine or Ladder company.

"William H. Nicholson became the first Black man on November 7, 1898 to join the FDNY. About a month later he was advanced to 4th grade fireman and made $800 a year. Nicholson was assigned to Engine Company 6 in Brooklyn. He faced discrimination, however. When he arrived for duty, orders had been received from fire headquarters that read, “When William H. Nicholson reports for duty, send him to headquarters. He is detailed to the Veterinary Department in Manhattan.” Nicholson worked for the department for 14 years as a horse groom."
http://amsterdamnews.com/news/2017/sep/12/fdny-150/

I remember reading of "black bunks" reserved in FDNY firehouses.

Ref: Firefight: The Century-Long Battle to Integrate New York’s Bravest
By Ginger Adams Otis

That's something "Mick O'Toole from the Bronx" never had to tolerate.

Im not sure what we are debating...

 

[mariomike]

Im not sure what we are debating...

I was replying to this,

I'm not sure Mick O'Toole from the Bronx circa 1876 would have the same feelings.

It goes back to,

I think you need to do some reading on the Irish experience from 1169 (English/Norman invasions) onward.  These people were violently; and with extreme prejudice, oppressed on their own land by a foreign power for hundreds of years.  The victimhood of racism isn't solely owned by races and colors other than white.

You cannot discuss the Irish in America with out digging into the roots of the emigration from Erin and the Irish diaspora.  Not to mention the Irish Catholics, during the Potatoe Famine and US Civil War, were not exactly welcome on the shores of the USA unless they were to be used as fodder for the US Civil War.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Where do you draw your link ?

Honest question.  I don't see how it all equates. 

Unless you trying to show that the Irish are racist too ?  To Which I would reply of course there are/was Irish racists.  Just like there are racists in all bodies of colors and creeds.

 

[mariomike]

Honest question.  I don't see how it all equates. 

You don't?

I think you need to do some reading on the Irish experience from 1169 (English/Norman invasions) onward.  These people were violently; and with extreme prejudice, oppressed on their own land by a foreign power for hundreds of years. The victimhood of racism isn't solely owned by races and colors other than white.

Unless you trying to show that the Irish are racist too ?  To Which I would reply of course there are/was Irish racists.  Just like there are racists in all bodies of colors and creeds.

Nobody called anybody a racist.

 

[Halifax Tar]

You don't?

Nope

Nobody called anybody a racist.

Thats not true.  All "white people" are inherently racist if you follow the latest line of progressive thought.