All things Charlottesville (merged)

[mariomike]

That's really too bad because their accomplishments and Sacagawea's story are quite inspirational even though there is an overtone of its being a precursor to the whole Manifest Destiny thing and, of course, the usual attitudes engrained in American society at the time. I can see where the statue was not particulalry flattering of her while on the other hand that she was included on the piece at all would have been a very progressive thing back in 1919 when it was put up.

Being an immigrant to North America, I have no dog in the hunt of preserving historic icons but on the other hand I feel a sense of loss that we are taking down statues of people, who made a mark on history, just because they were people of their time and had beliefs some now find offensive. Strangely as we tear down statues of John A Macdonald, we're putting up statues of Louis Riel - I fail to see the logic in that.

From what I understood, the City of Charlottesville is considering some "recontextualization" of the statue.

Perhaps, there will be some "recontextualization" regarding Kate Smith's statue also.

 

[OldSolduer]

I’ll bite. What’s Kate Smiths sins?

 

[FJAG]

I’ll bite. What’s Kate Smiths sins?

See here.

 

[mariomike]

See here.

But, this one gets me every time.

 

[FJAG]

Ah! Irving Berlin.

 

[OldSolduer]

See here.

Got it. I’m shaking my head - yep racist for sure. There’s a boatload more political figures, celebrities and military people whose statues might be removed

 

[mariomike]

There’s a boatload more political figures, celebrities and military people whose statues might be removed

And at what cost to taxpayers? Hauling down statues is one thing, but renaming streets can get pretty expensive.

For example, the City of Toronto is re-naming Dundas St. Cost $6.3 million.

The recommendation to rename Dundas Street includes by extension the renaming of all civic and other assets bearing the Dundas name.

Recognition Review and Response to the Dundas Street Renaming Petition

Backgrounder June 28, 2021 June 28, 2021 Recognition Review and Response to the Dundas Street Renaming Petition In June 2020, City Council received a petition calling for Dundas Street to be renamed. The street is named after Scottish politician Henry Dundas, who scholars have concluded played...

www.toronto.ca

Other assets affected by this name change include:

• Over 730 street signs
• Signage on Highway 427
• Two subway stations, two streetcar/bus routes and numerous transit shelters renamed and signage, etc.
• Yonge-Dundas Square renamed and signage, etc.
• Three parks renamed and 12 park and facility signs
• One Toronto Public Library branch renamed and signage, etc.
• 625 Bike Share station and Green P carpark signs, etc.
• 129 signs and 35 info pillars for the TO360 wayfinding program
• PATH signage
• 1 Toronto Police Service division headquarters sign
• 1 Corporate Real Estate Management operations centre sign

New street addresses would also be required for Toronto Community Housing Corporation properties, a fire station, a museum, a shelter, Employment & Social Services offices, and a major Toronto Public Health centre offering a variety of clinical services to the community.

But wait, there's more,

• In March 2020, Toronto renamed a portion of Russell Street, named after one of early Toronto’s most infamous supporters of slavery. Russell Street was renamed to honour Ursula Franklin, a pioneering scientist and feminist, in March 2020.

Staff are aware of at least 60 other street names, primarily small local roads, which could require further examination in the future, including at least 12 streets named after slave owners. Examples include:

• Baby Point neighbourhood named after James Baby, a Toronto resident and slave owner; Jarvis Street named after William Jarvis, who was a slave owner in Toronto; and,
• Yonge Street named after George Yonge, a British politician who has been implicated in corruption and slave trafficking.

Yonge St.

Until 1999, the Guinness Book of World Records repeated the popular misconception it was 1,896 km (1,178 mi) long, making it the longest street in the world;

 

[mariomike]

Saw this discussion in another thread.

And torches. Everyone likes fire. They also seem to trigger the left for some reason. So that's a free bonus right there.

Can we not make this thread political? Plenty of places to insult others elsewhere on this site.

Torches are fun at backyard pool parties.

But, wielded at unite the right type rallies, I imagine they would disgust any sensible person. Regardless of party politics.

​

 

[FJAG]

Torchlights in and of themselves are not a bad thing. Kind of like the rifle argument; its not the gun its the shooter.

Both Germany and Austria's militaries still conduct Grosser Zapfenstreich parades which are the equivalent in meaning and history as the British traditional tattoos (Grosser Zapfenstreich literally means the "grand tattoo"). As we all know the tattoo was held at night when the taps on beer kegs were to be shut of in the taverns and the soldiers return to barracks. Seeing that it is a nighttime ceremony, the German/Austrian equivalent were/are always held after dark and with torches.

The fact that modern day neo-Nazis hold their torch ceremonies as a mimic of Nazi rallies doesn't change the original meaning and use of the Grosser Zapfenstreich torchlight parades. It's the context that matters, not the tool.

 

[mariomike]

Torchlights in and of themselves are not a bad thing. Kind of like the rifle argument; its not the gun its the shooter.

Both Germany and Austria's militaries still conduct Grosser Zapfenstreich parades which are the equivalent in meaning and history as the British traditional tattoos (Grosser Zapfenstreich literally means the "grand tattoo"). As we all know the tattoo was held at night when the taps on beer kegs were to be shut of in the taverns and the soldiers return to barracks. Seeing that it is a nighttime ceremony, the German/Austrian equivalent were/are always held after dark and with torches.

The fact that modern day neo-Nazis hold their torch ceremonies as a mimic of Nazi rallies doesn't change the original meaning and use of the Grosser Zapfenstreich torchlight parades.

Right.

I should have specified the torch rallies at Charlottesville, the KKK and NAZI Germany have nothing to do with the peaceful Grosser Zapfenstreich torchlight parades.

It's the context that matters, not the tool.

Torches at backyard pool parties are fun. I imagine Grosser Zapfenstreich is too.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Well if Slave owning is the criteria, then we should be taking down totem poles because they represent the clans that took slaves and conducted warfare against other more peaceful tribes. Almost every leading family in every band had slaves sometimes up to 50 of them.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Keep it going. The angst over tiki torches is entertaining as hell. I'd hate to see what kind of lynching we can devise if someone said something truly offensive. Getting indignant, accusitory and all huffy at torches sounds like someone has too much time on their hands. Wait, am I in shit for using the word lynchings or do we get another page of indignation over words, that in and of themselves, are perfectly harmless. Cancel culture seems it might be making inroads. There's an ignore button if you can't stand the conversation.....or me. Meanwhile, I'll be out on the patio, basking in the warmth and glow of my tiki torches. Even my woke neighbour's like them.

 

[Remius]

Well if Slave owning is the criteria, then we should be taking down totem poles because they represent the clans that took slaves and conducted warfare against other more peaceful tribes. Almost every leading family in every band had slaves sometimes up to 50 of them.

Like FJAG said. Context not the tool. But go ahead and advocate for that and see how far it gets you. Hate and the ongoing use of it is the criteria, those idiots in those photos want a return to slavery and segregation. Do any of those northwest pacific clans? Are they rallying and placing Totem poles as symbols of slavery? No. Totem poles had different meanings for different things.

I honestly could care less if those morons use tiki torches or flashlights. It’s what they stand for that is the concern.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Like FJAG said. Context not the tool. But go ahead and advocate for that and see how far it gets you. Hate and the ongoing use of it is the criteria, those idiots in those photos want a return to slavery and segregation. Do any of those northwest pacific clans? Are they rallying and placing Totem poles as symbols of slavery? No. Totem poles had different meanings for different things.

I honestly could care less if those morons use tiki torches or flashlights. It’s what they stand for that is the concern.

Totem poles represent the family/clan lineage history and generally the bigger poles would be done by the more powerful families, who owned slaves and profited by them. Slave raids were going in around 1860 on this coast and I am unsure when the last slave was freed or died. So a modern FN person from a important family would very likely have a Great-Great grandparent that owned slaves. So it's not that long ago.

 

[Altair]

Totem poles represent the family/clan lineage history and generally the bigger poles would be done by the more powerful families, who owned slaves and profited by them. Slave raids were going in around 1860 on this coast and I am unsure when the last slave was freed or died. So a modern FN person from a important family would very likely have a Great-Great grandparent that owned slaves. So it's not that long ago.

If those ancestors of enslaved FN had an issue with that slavery or totem poles you would have made a excellent point.

However, it is not up to you whether those ancestors have issues with that slavery or totem poles, now is it?

 

[Weinie]

If those ancestors of enslaved FN had an issue with that slavery or totem poles you would have made a excellent point.

However, it is not up to you whether those ancestors have issues with that slavery or totem poles, now is it?

I think you mean descendants.

 

[Altair]

I think you mean descendants.

Yup.

It was 1:22 am when I posted that, pretty sure I was tired. Or tipsy. Or both.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

So, jt wants to hold me responsible for something Caucasians have done two centuries ago, but the FN get a pass. Got it. And people wonder why I'm flippant and don't give a shit about this whole mockery of cancel culture, history revision, outlandish claims, high jacking of our cultures and targeting and dividing various groups. It's fucking stupid and watching people get wound around the axle for the particular cause they've picked this week to show their friends how woke they are and how superior it makes them feel, just gives me something else to laugh at. And the more protestations they put up, the funnier it gets. And before anyone tries, none of my statements have anything to do with Residential Schools. My niece is one of those students and I have other family that were involved and the stories about the graft, destitution, crime and hierarchy on reservations is horrendous. Most of it caused by the millionaire band leaders and elders.

 

[Altair]

So, jt wants to hold me responsible for something Caucasians have done two centuries ago, but the FN get a pass. Got it. And people wonder why I'm flippant and don't give a shit about this whole mockery of cancel culture, history revision, outlandish claims, high jacking of our cultures and targeting and dividing various groups.

You know what? This is fine.

Because the next generation will know. They will grow up with the knowledge and acceptance of what happened was wrong, and how everyone needs to do better. And the generation after that even more so.


Looking south, post slavery, reconstruction and Jim crow were the obvious reactionary results of that grand societal change. But fast forward to today and blacks are fully integrated into society and most of society knows what was done to them was wrong.

Progress happens, regardless of your individual thoughts on the matter.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I wonder if

Progress happens, regardless of your individual thoughts on the matter.

By progress you mean kicking the can down the road after the obligatory promises to "do better" and some "be quiet for a bit" money.


"Do better" has become such a fake platitude.