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All About PAT (merged)

  • Thread starter Thread starter Andrew
  • Start date Start date
It was PRETC when I was at Borden, and it was awful. We got up at 7AM, went over to T83, went for a run, then when that was done, we went back to our shacks and didn't report back for duty until 1300. Then we alternately sat around at T83 and did nothing, or played baseball until 1500, when we were let off for the day. It was a constant game of trying to fight off boredom. And their staff were inept. They had their administrative work being done by interns fresh out of St. Jean, who had absolutely no experience with the Logistics or Administration system in the military, so inevitably, a lot of things were lost, misfiled, delayed, etc. It was the logistical equivalent of taking a freshly graduated St. Jean recruit and having them working over at Maintenance with minimal supervision. The dysfunctional administrative system therefore caused further delays in people getting on courses, OJT, outside taskings, etc. and contributed to the general sense of uselessness that I'm sure I wasn't alone in experiencing. A lot of troops developped substance abuse problems due to the lack of anything to do and the availability of alcohol. I remember the last weekly parade I did at PRETC, when probably 25% of the people on parade that morning were either hungover, or still drunk. Since people had nothing to do, more than a few ended up getting into trouble with the MPs, because in their boredom, they began doing stupid things to keep themselves occupied. Psychologically, it was a tough go, it really was. I saw people whom I'd known from St. Jean, good guys, doing stupid things because they were bored and drunk, getting injured, or arrested. It bred such an indifference that I started to get jaded and cynical, and were it not for the fact that I was from Barrie, I would have ended up getting pretty depressed. It was mentally and physically draining. Then every so often, they'd offer you a tease - "Well, we have an opening for OJT for a Vehicle Tech in Valcartier," (which both my buddy and I both decided against, because we didn't want to go to Valcartier. Ironically, we're both here now) or "We have OJT available in Aldershot, so come on down to Warrant So-And-So's office if you're interested." You'd rush home, draft up a memo, and the next morning, when you gave him the memo, he'd say, "What's this for?" "Um...The OJT opening, Warrant." "What OJT opening? We don't have any OJT openings anywhere. But I'll take this and hang onto it just in case something comes up." Which generally meant that it would sit on his desk for a few days until he decided to clean up, and then it went into the recycling bin. Yeah, it was pretty rough.
 
SierraAir said:
Baseball?!?!?!


I can't wait!

I don't think it's that bad now, because most of the backlog has been cleared up, and they've organised a training programme that keeps you at least somewhat occupied, but when it first opened, they had no idea what to do with 600 privates waiting for courses, so we spent a lot of time doing nothing. See, what they did was combine all the schools' PAT platoons from Borden and Kingston into one big group. CFSEME, CFMSS, CFSAL, CFMPA, CFSCE and CFSATE all shed their PAT platoons and made one, well, at 600 troops, PAT Battalion. Getting fat, lazy, bored, indifferent and depressed. We had guys waiting for a year and a half for their QL3 courses because there was such a backlog. The buddy of mine whom I mentioned in my last post just got posted here in July. He'll be due for his Coproral's hooks before he's done his QL4.

Be thankful: you've been spared that fate...
 
Kyle,

I concur with what you said about PRETC in Borden. I have never been there, but my friend was there this past winter/spring. Now he is on his QL3 in Borden. It really does sound horrible from what I have heard/seen. He has gone from a really responsible, clear thinking guy into a rude, inconsiderate guy. He drinks like a fish, and too has taken up drugs. I never in my life thought he would ever be doing drugs, but he is. I know this isn't just because of being there, he still had a choice and made a bad one. But, it seems the environment there makes this lifestyle way too easy and sounds like it's way too common. I really hate the thought of the people who are going to be serving our country doing stuff like this. Plus, I guess I am just so disappointed in my friend. He is so much better than that. Unfortunately, the environment he is in makes it too easy. Most of the people he knows have these bad habits... Sad I must say!
 
No, it has not gotten better because of Foxtrot Coy.

Just more injuries, and more Bull-oney.

The only thing that could make it better is if they had a fresh turnover in staff, morale would build and it wouldn't be so bad. :salute:
 
  I know a guy who was in PAT platoon about 2 years ago. He said while he was there he noticed two different types of people. There were people who used their boredom positively and those who used it negatively. He told me that he and his buddies would always find something to do on their down time such as spending time in the gym, playing various sports, etc. He also told me that he knew people who would sit around and drink themselves stupid, only to become fat, lazy, and ultimately useless. So I guess it's all in the type of person you are. I guess you could consider PAT platoon another test of your committment to the CF. Are you willing to wait until your next course and better yourself in the meantime? Or are you going to sit around and whither away into a waste of the CF's time and money? Just a perspective from a new recruit. Cheers.  :salute:

:cdn:
 
Kyle said:
I don't think it's that bad now, because most of the backlog has been cleared up, and they've organised a training programme that keeps you at least somewhat occupied, but when it first opened, they had no idea what to do with 600 privates waiting for courses, so we spent a lot of time doing nothing. See, what they did was combine all the schools' PAT platoons from Borden and Kingston into one big group. CFSEME, CFMSS, CFSAL, CFMPA, CFSCE and CFSATE all shed their PAT platoons and made one, well, at 600 troops, PAT Battalion. Getting fat, lazy, bored, indifferent and depressed. We had guys waiting for a year and a half for their QL3 courses because there was such a backlog. The buddy of mine whom I mentioned in my last post just got posted here in July. He'll be due for his Coproral's hooks before he's done his QL4.

Be thankful: you've been spared that fate...



Thats frightening!

R
 
Bradboy said:
  I know a guy who was in PAT platoon about 2 years ago. He said while he was there he noticed two different types of people. There were people who used their boredom positively and those who used it negatively. He told me that he and his buddies would always find something to do on their down time such as spending time in the gym, playing various sports, etc. He also told me that he knew people who would sit around and drink themselves stupid, only to become fat, lazy, and ultimately useless. So I guess it's all in the type of person you are. I guess you could consider PAT platoon another test of your committment to the CF. Are you willing to wait until your next course and better yourself in the meantime? Or are you going to sit around and whither away into a waste of the CF's time and money? Just a perspective from a new recruit. Cheers.  :salute:

:cdn:

Nah, they don't need you to waste their time and money - they that well enough themselves, they don't need our help. :-X

They tried to tell us that the waiting list was intentional, to test our commitment (and it was a test of our commitment, but it sure as heck wasn't intentional), but nobody bought it. What does the Army gain from having you sit around doing nothing for a year? They're paying you, quartering you, patching up your injuries, taking care of your teeth, feeding you and buying your medication, but they're not getting anything out of you; you're not being put to any productive use to get anything done for them. But hey, it's their budget - if they want to waste it, it's up to them. But it really annoyed me when they tried to sell the story that it was deliberate to test my commitment to the Army. No, that what BMQ is intended to do. That really annoyed me. Instead of manning up and saying, 'Sorry, we pulled a bonehead,' they tried to feed us a ridiculous story about it being part of the training. As a result, I know quite a few people who have not renewed their contracts, and several more who don't intend to. And why should they? They were lied to and cheated. They were promised signing bonuses for their civilian qualifications, they were promised bypasses on their occupational training, and instead, they ended up sitting around Borden doing nothing for a year before they went for their QL3 training. And when they eventually did go, they had to go for the entire course. Then when they got to their units, they were told that they weren't entitled to signing bonuses, and should have never been told that they were. What happened, if I remember correctly, is that Borden was telling the recruiting centres that signing bonuses and training bypasses were authorised in such cases, when in reality, they weren't. It was good ol' disorganisation, and the Canadian Army is famous for it.

When Chretien gave the CF a bigger piece of the pie in the 2002-2003 Budget, they decided to immediately hire 6000 new recruits. They figured that they had to hire them while they still had the budget to do so, but didn't take into consideration that somebody had to train those new recruits, and that the majority of them would be going to Borden. And since the previous annual recruiting rate was lower than the retention rate, the schools cut back on the number of courses going through to match the number of recruits coming through. Makes sense - why have ten instructors on staff if you only need three, right? But suddenly, they had on average 75 recruits a week coming from St. Jean. And it's not that easy to just post a few Cpls and M/Cpls from units, because then the units lack the personnel required to be operationally ready. So you have to train more Privates and Corporals to be Corporals and Master Corporals. So now you need more instructors at the Combat Schools in order to teach the Junior Leadership Courses, but again, you can't just pull people away from units and leave the units operationally unprepared. So you have to wait until more Privates are trained and posted to units so that they can replace the Privates who are going to be promoted to Corporal to replace the Corporals who are going to be promoted to Master Corporal and posted to the various schools. So, it's basically just a complete standstill - the schools need trained instructors, but the units can't give them any until they have trained Privates. But the schools can't give the units any more trained Privates until they have more instructors. In my trade, it takes two years of training to become qualified. So it will take at least two years to get a Craftsman qualified to work on his own so that you can take a Corporal off the floor, give him his Master Corporal's leaf, and post him to CFSEME to teach. That's why the backlog is only now starting to clear up. But they obviously didn't take that into consideration when they hired us. They couldn't have. I can't see the Army saying, "Well, they'll be sitting around doing nothing for a year, and then they'll be done their first contract before they're even QL4 qualified. In some trades, they'll be done their second three-year contract before they're QL5 qualified so we'll be paying that lot for six years and not really getting anything out of them, but what the heck, let's hire them anyway. We'll see if we can talk them into signing on for 14 more when their IE is up." And they want to hire 4000 more people by the end of the fiscal year. Apparently, they didn't learn anything last time around. They look at their operational requirements, and say, "We need personnel." so they hire by the thousands. But they don't need personnel, they need trained personnel. A better approach would have been to sit down and say, "What is the maximum number of people that we can train this year, including all PAT?" and based their recruiting number on that, thereby getting the maximum number of personnel into units and eliminating the backlog so that next year, they would be able get people through BMQ, through QL3 and off to a unit to work and be useful without any unnecessary delay.

PteMacPooie said:
No, it has not gotten better because of Foxtrot Coy.

Just more injuries, and more Bull-oney.

The only thing that could make it better is if they had a fresh turnover in staff, morale would build and it wouldn't be so bad. :salute:

*sigh*

I guess some things will never change. Sad, really. Don't worry, though - it's not like that when you get to your unit. Once you're qualified and working in your trade, it gets better. I'm going on to my 5th unit next week (I've worked at 3 R22R Maint., 5e BNS S.I., 5e Bon SG Pon. Veh., 1 R22R Maint. and next week, I'm moving over to 5e Ambulance de Campagne), and none of them have been anything like the crap that I had to put up with at PRETC.
 
Just thought I'd post a few things from what I've experienced here in St-Jean being on PAT, after being partially recoursed due to injury. This guide should inform new PAT platoon members on the the processes  involved with FIT and UNFIT personell, daily timings for both, and hopefully provide some advice to reassure you life isn't over and it's just a little obstable in your career path with the Canadian Forces. Remember, life on PAT is totally different than being on platoon, you'll be bunked with a lot of PAR people which may or may not change  your thoughts on BMQ.

So you've been injured, graduated RFT or been recoursed... welcome to PAT (Personell Awaiting Training).

The first step is your PERS File will be forwarded by your platoon staff up the CoC. One of your marching NCOs will pull you aside from a class and take you down to B-129 which houses all of PAT and PAR staff offices as well as the break areas for each platoon. You'll sit down in a room with a civilian who is in charge of assigning you a trailer and bunkspace, after filling out some paperwork. As of Jan 01 2008 you will now move from either Blue or Green Sector to the trailers. Yep, thats right, brand spanking new trailers resembling your local trailer park sans the pickups. Even the bathroom and showers are in trailers. You'll have someone whos doing Duty Escort help pack your bags and lug them down outside near B-129 and into the "trailer park". You will have the trailer number and bunkspace on you from before and you'll find you way to your new home.

Last Updated: 20 Feb 2008
TBC... Bistro gives 20 mins per
 
infact, some grad people are stuck in PAT also just to wait for posting message. Some of them can't accept the fact that their careers being screwed around for months and they choose to VR. The rule also stated that all grad personals were allowed to stay in blue sector and inspection by-pass. However, as per 2 weeks ago, the rule changed due to the grad officers taking over the whole 4th floor, all the grad people of Pat move to the trailers.
 
airlady said:
infact, some grad people are stuck in PAT also just to wait for posting message. Some of them can't accept the fact that their careers being screwed around for months and they choose to VR. The rule also stated that all grad personals were allowed to stay in blue sector and inspection by-pass. However, as per 2 weeks ago, the rule changed due to the grad officers taking over the whole 4th floor, all the grad people of Pat move to the trailers.

Some of the graduate recruits and officers are here awaiting their posting message to where they will end up going from here, either PRETC (kinda like PAT) in Borden or to their new unit  to commence the 2nd phase of their training. From what I understand, RFT got kicked off the 4th floor despite having the PSP staff complain there were too many injuries from climbing 12 flights of stairs. So now the grad officers working on their 2nd language training are moving back to 4th floor and RFT back to 12th.
 
js25 said:
Can you post a picture of the trailers?

Due to policy, I can not post a picture of inside the trailers.
REF: Facebook/MySpace/Hi5 Online Memo
 
RFT being on the 12th floor is a good thing anyways. Climbing 12 flights of stairs 3-5 times a day is great for a person's fitness level.
 
There a MIR on any of those floors? Because I know that some of the RFT trainees might need it 1/4 of the way up  ;D
 
RTaylor said:
There a MIR on any of those floors? Because I know that some of the RFT trainees might need it 1/4 of the way up  ;D

You'd be surprised at the difference that program causes for an individual. I've seen some enter the program at 300+ lbs, and graduate from BMQ 100+ lbs lighter, having no problems at all with the express test. (and doing quite well on it too!)
 
Hehe I was just teasing, the RTF is an amazing addition to the recruitment and training process :)  I may end up on it myself (just being honest with myself hehe).
 
RTaylor said:
I may end up on it myself (just being honest with myself hehe).

    I wouldn't be so cavalier about it. If you think theres any chance you might fail, get off the computer and go run. You don't wanna be on RFT if you can help it.
 
RTaylor said:
Hehe I was just teasing, the RTF is an amazing addition to the recruitment and training process :)  I may end up on it myself (just being honest with myself hehe).

Good attitude.
 
RTaylor said:
Hehe I was just teasing, the RTF is an amazing addition to the recruitment and training process :)  I may end up on it myself (just being honest with myself hehe).

Hehe.  Stay at home, because it makes too much paperwork for me.  Hehe.
 
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