Afghanistan: Lessons Learned (merged)

[boondocksaint]

Both my C-9 gunners liked using the old style web gear, it worked for them. Several of our other C-9 gunners used a variety of purchased vests, generally around $300 each. Small price to pay when you are reaching for drum number 4.

Buy your gear here in Canada, over there you will only get second rate stuff off the boardwalk. The PX has usable trinkets, but nothing vest-like.

Here in Canada we load ourselves down with alot of stuff, over there you will ditch all but the bare essentials, the old style gear worked fine in that case.

 

[boondocksaint]

Called a few of the guys to find out which brands they used;

Tiger Tactical, and Tactical Tailor were the two big names. Both can be built from the yoke up. Adding on whatever works for you. You can find both on-line. Also Black Hawk makes some nice rigs, pricey but well made. Beware certain types of chestrigs, they put alot of strain on your neck, unless they have an H strape on the back.

You wont always need to hump 4 drums, the situation will dictate. When your spidey senses tell you 4 is the right number, it's usually right. You will also be able to get the American patrol pouch for your ammo over there, holds 100rds and works better then ours. It's rigid and more compact so your ammo doesnt get jinked up.

My primary C-9 gunner carried several of those, plus the one on his weapon, the plastic drums were his 'last chance' ammo. The bulk of his firing was either standing or kneeling, supported and unsupported. Get used to firing on the move, short bursts, walking not running. You will know when to go prone. Check your link often. Test fire daily, keep your chin up and your head down.

 

[Haggis]

*cough* http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/18270.0.html *cough*

It was only a matter of time before this was brought up.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Hi boon. Im actually in Charlie Company of the 1st Vandoos. Were being deployed to support the PRT at the begining of december for an unknown amount of time. 6 to 9 months. I must say that reading this topic was an amazing, and very usefull reading. Im gonna be a C9 gunner and Im actually looking for a good Tac Vest that would hold at least 4 drums, with different other usefull items.. such as grenades, smokes and such. I know that the actual Tac Vest that we use in the forces just doesnt fit for what were gonna be doing there. You said that both of your c9 gunners were using the old webbing with 4 c9 pouches. Did it do the job, did they say they would prefer having a real tac vest? Because the webbing has a pretty limited ammount of pouches that can be fitted on it. Also, do you know if there is any way to buy one there at the american PX, or if there is a PX at all on Nathan Smith Camp? (thats where were going)
I found myself one of these: http://www.opticsplanet.net/issak-60-saw-gunner-flotation-kit.html# and Im thinking about spending the 300$ on it. since my life, and the life of my squad might depend on it. Also, Id like to know what you think about the Surfire flashlight used by the forces in A-stan. I found a nice one at the R. Nicholls here in Quebec but if the one given by the CF is worth it I wont be spending 140$ on it. 

Im sorry for al those questions, but every information I can get on how it works over there (since our chain of command doesnt seems to be able to give us more then the minimum of information), might have an impact on how well I do my job. Thanks for your answer anyways. Anybody else who can give me anykind of usefull info is welcome also.

Arktis produces good gear and makes a vest especially for the 'Minimi'. I've worn their stuff before, although not the C9 vest, and it's first rate

http://www.arktisltd.co.uk/specialforces/vestsmilitary.htm

Although it's UK based there is a dealer in the US viz: http://www.arktisltd.co.uk/dealers.htm

 

[Alex22]

Thank you very much for the info guys... very usefull.

 

[westie47]

I know Tiger Tactical makes a C9 specific vest. If you want to custom build one, go with Tactical Tailor. They are moderately priced, extremely well-made and durable. You can get it in CadPat (TW) from Dave's Surplus in Vancouver. They have a website. If you want to go a little higher quality, check out HSGI (High Speed Gear Inc). They are making chest rigs in Cadpat AR, very good quality. For about $240 US you can get a Split-front MAV, X-harness, 4 x SAW pouches and hydration carrier from Tactical Tailor. Good price, never let you down. When you call Dave's Surplus, ask for Martin or Colin.  Cheers.

 

[KevinB]

Buddy with a Tiger Tactical vest

Jay's Tactical Tailor rig and add on's

 

[Alex22]

Infidel. I want that first Tiger Tactical vest. But I couldnt find it on the website... Im gonna do a deeper search but if you could get me an actual link to the vest on the website, or wherver your buddy bought it. It would be amazing....

 

[PhilB]

Your google foo sucks!lol

heres the link

http://www.tigertactical.com/productlist-03.php

its the first item on the list. The military ops vest and you want the c9 panels

 

[daftandbarmy]

Most of our fighting was done at far closer range then I think any of us anticipated. Generally at the longer ranges, 200-300m, it became more about suppression and 'fixing' the enemy. 5.56 was more then sufficient, and we had other weapons to augment this of course.

It was great for close in fighting, between compounds, and in room clearing it did just fine. The age old arguement about a heavier round vs a lighter one will always happen. For me, the 5.56 got it done fine

boondocksaint,

Any other suggestions on some simple training/ drills we can practise at the coy/pl/sect level? e.g., Anything that will build up our close range fighting skills that you've either already done in training, or is definitely not taught in our usual courses/ pre-deployment workups.

Cheers.

 

[boondocksaint]

Gunfighter-gunfighter-gunfighter program-

it saves lives, new stance, improved IA drills, and meant for fighting at close proximity, saved us in Sangin

 

[vonGarvin]

Gunfighter-gunfighter-gunfighter program-

it saves lives, new stance, improved IA drills, and meant for fighting at close proximity, saved us in Sangin

You mean "cock, cant, look" doesn't cut it?  LOL  (j/k)

In all seriousness, however, I've only seen a very small part of the gunfighter.  From ALL accounts (here, in Canada, from guys who hadn't even deployed yet), it is a VAST improvement over the 'old' programme.  I can't wait to get off of this course I'm on and get into the weeds again.

 

[silentbutdeadly]

Here in our Btln we cannot stress how much Gunfighter improve us all before we went over. Yeah it hurts like hell when you first start doing it, but coming from a guy that needed it and used it when shyte went down, it works. Its a program that we should start using on BIQ's, so the soldiers can get the muscle memory needed to hold the different stance and such.

 

[Garett]

I think Gunfighter is called PWT 4 now, meaning its been officially adopted.  A couple of our UOIs had to run some TF-1-07 engineers through it a few weeks ago, I think all Cbt Arms types have to shoot PWT4 before they go over.  They were out at the range from Mon to Fri doing it, it takes a significant amount of ammo to do the work up before the test.  Sounds like the way to go though.

 

[geo]

well... it's about time for them to break out the ammunition for everyone to train on.

The bogus range qualifications on next to nothing ammo was a crying disgrace.

 

[orange.paint]

The CQB guys were telling us on MOD 6 the gunfighter program was most likely going to take over from the PWT as the annual testing.I only had a slight introduction (1 day 9mm paint) but found it great.As a armoured guy who don't get to do cool stuff like that where I'm posted,I thought it was great.

The instructor's course sounds intense also.

 

[darmil]

A few weeks ago we were told that the PWT3 is now like 600 rounds and the gunfighter is part of it.I agree it hurts like hell, but better by far.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Gotta agree with the comments on cheaping out on ammo and cheesy range practises (is the old PWT 3 really worth the effort?). If our country can afford a couple billion $ on ships and aircraft etc we should at least spend a few pennies on enough ball ammo to make sure that our people at the sharpest end come back alive, and that the bad guys don't.

 

[warchild]

I was BDS PL WO for the tour.  We trained a little different for the tour than most.  Here is what I would go over with your guy's.

Shooting- Shoot at unknown ranges without berms.  We shot allot on the bermless ATS rge in Ed.  This taught and forced the guy's to judge distance and to make correction's off splash.  I also gave them 7 mags but 10 boxes of ammo.  I had them in Ptl formations walking down to the tgt's then yelled contact. (Watching the battle drills).  The reaction to contact (Effective fire) then there wining the fire fight was what I was watching for.  We also did it with full kit including rucks.  I wanted to see how they would "Doff" there kit and what they did with it.  What I was looking for at the end of this was, did they get behind there rucks, did they suppress the tgt well enough, communicate with each other i.e. so the fire teams did not take there kit off at the same time and, when they ran there mags dry did they communicate that they were going to reload.  I found this one most interesting because some guy's after 4-6 mags new they were low.  They would pass on to his fire team that he would reload.  Some tm's had there guy that was reloading do there's at the same time.  Others basically covered and when he was done, would start to re bomb himself.  Different way's of skinning the cat for sure.  One thing I learned as well was the Gerber tool was totally useless on your belt for your pants.  One of the guy's had a hard stoppage and tried to get to his Gerber but it was buried under his flakjacket and shirt.  We made it a practice to put it on your kit where you could get to it.  Another thing we came up with to help with the low shot was to put your range on your C79 scope to 300 so that when you shot your first few off to the tgt (Almost all first shots from an unknown rge were low) this would give you a better and more accurate shot to hit.
Gunfighter- This is hands down the best thing we have done in the last few years.  The gun fighter program teaches wpn's handling, muscle memory and most of all confidence.  We had no issues with any wpn handling in any TIC.  Infact if you watch the CF combat camera footage you will see the Pl fighting very close to each other with barrels all over the place beside each other.  The gunfighter got rid of the "RANGEISMS and WATCISM's".  The Pl was used to having barrels very close.  Try doing that before gunfighter and you might of had somebody yelling at you for barrel drift.  We were very comfortable and that helps in a TIC.
Counter ambush- As a rule and as a min we always did the AUSSIE for rehearsals.  I felt this helped in Sangin when we were hit.  Also the FAN worked very well.  You will notice that is what BDS did with his crew.  The TB were not expecting us to turn and fight which is exactly what we did.  If you can get away with it do it live.
M-203- Get as much as you can and practice lots.  We had gunners that could put a rnd through a "Yoda door" from 300 m.
M-72-We didn't get to practice with them too much before we left.  In fact I might be having a APS moment but' I don't think we had any.
Practice IED IA's.  If you don't have the drill or have not heard about it we will have to go off line due to OPSEC.

These are just a few things beside all the norm such as FA, comms etc.  FA though should be hammered home hard.  And not the "where does it hurt".  The last thing I will recommend is right out of the box.  Go onto google and search for the terrorist footage of IED's, ambush's and them just acting tough.  Burn them to disk and take them in to your guy's.  Make them watch it first.  Don't say why they are watching it other than "Check this stuff out".  While they are watching it watch them.  Look for the ones that are visibly disturbed or all of a sudden very quiet.  You might want to look at them a bit harder for pre deployment.  The other benefit now is to ask the group' "On that first IED, who saw the aiming mark, who saw the firing postion".  This will not only start to get your guy's accustom to seeing IED's but it will also help them with the looking for the signs of an IED.  After the 2 IED's that my PL hit and the one that I drove over, there were sign's of it been there that we missed.  This will help but don't tell them that's what you are doing.  It sinks in better after they have watched it and missed the sign's like the telephone pole or the obvious rock etc.
Night fighting- In WX I had the PL go through a big obstical crse with lanes and tunnels etc to firing points and a grenade toss at the end.  This was done at night with only MNV's on.  This taught them to trust thieir equip and also depth perseption etc.  If their nod's were not on right or adjusted wrong they had a hard time.  I made it a section compition and let them have fun with it.  This was dry as hip pocket training but could be done live. The winners got a case of beer.  The grenade toss was into a burn barrel and it was a glow stick.  This activity I found was very effective.

I will post more later if anyone wants them.

 

[paracowboy]

I will post more later if anyone wants them.

well...YEAH!