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Absolutely! The unionized schoolhouse mentality that indirect fire is the FOOs job is BS. There's a reason why it's taught on Phase training.
Afghanistan: Lessons Learned (merged)
- Thread starter boondocksaint
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Journeyman said:
+1 All Infantry, in fact all Combat Arms Officers should be able to call in fire.
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+1!Journeyman said:
Although, I must admit, this past year's DP 1.1 (phase III) might be better off than say last years (I taught the lesson) (patting self on back)
But seriously, what I mean is that the lesson plan was from the Field Artillery School and it got WAY DEEP in the muck. I took out stuff about angle T, lanes, etc, and stuck with the basics. Left/Right, Add/Drop, FFE, End of mission.
Also, since we had an inordinate number of adv qual pers on the course, when so-and-so called a mission in during the field portions, their missions were CLOSELY assessed AND mentored. As an example one fella called in a mission, and it was bang on. Good initial grid, good "corrections" (based on "the round landed 'x' mils to the left", and so forth). Then, the target was successfully engaged (the lad was doing a platoon attack). Then the lad said "end of mission". "End of mission out" was the reply. Then he gave that target to the "FOO" (eg: the DS) for part of his fire plan. The arty "missed". Why? He failed to "Record as target". We gave him the lesson that once you say "end of mission", that's it, that's all, those guns go elsewhere. Hopefully he learned his lesson (and no, he didn't fail because of that).
Now, before the flames come in, the Field Artillery School helped us immensely with these lessons, so it was not a slag on them what I say about their lesson plan. It's just that the lesson plan is for the FOO course and future FOOs. Also, previous courses had infantry guys giving the lessons who knew two things about calling in fire: Jack and Poo, and Jack left town!
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I believe the most I ever heard him send was our grid- enemy grid and direction- what he wanted done to it and very minor adjustments ( new ammo is great ) several of us in our platoon are old mortar dogs and prior to our string of fights we helped him a bit, he also did some during phase he mentioned
the guns were great about interpreting what was being sent and what needed to be done on the ground.
the guns were great about interpreting what was being sent and what needed to be done on the ground.
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Yet another reason to bring back a full Combat Support Coy. As troops rotate through, they bring all kinds of skills to the Rifle Coys....and relatively "newby" Platoon Leaders.boondocksaint said:
(plus allowing more Cbt Sup load stations where the troops can escape from new rifle platoon leaders
)
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
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As a couch potato sitting here on the wet coast reading these AAR’s, I am amazed and proud of you guys, glad all arms are working together and it will be interesting to read the AAR’s when the Leo’s are there to help!
The concept of Canadians having pride in our troops is growing slowly but surely again.
The concept of Canadians having pride in our troops is growing slowly but surely again.
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2-the tac vest-for the love of god the tac vest.....seriously
-i got in a bit of poo early in the tour for saying something about our tac vest only holding 4 mags etc etc
well it only holds 4 mags! and that is NOT enough to fight with, some tic's i only fired 5 mags in 5 hours, in others i fired 10 mags in 5 minutes-i needed to get them quickly- thats why my pl all wore our own various rigs
*it cannot effectively hold enough ammo for a rifleman or a c-9 gunner OR an m-203 gunner( my c-9 gunners both used the old style webbing to hold 4 boxes)
*it doesnt hold enough water if you do somehow cram it full of gear that you need
***there are modular versions out there or quasi modular/fixed rigs that work much better for a great price- or adapt the brit idea of allowing an option between several approved rigs and adapting to the individual soldier-ive used the hockey player analogy before, no 2 guys dress exactly alike but they are all in the same uniform-it has to work for the individual, his life depends on it
I love (and often use) sports analogies. You make some excellent points, and sure hope that someone "up there" hears you, my earlier posts some time ago about the TV notwithstanding (anyone have a time machine so I can go back and amend what I put?)
DISCLAIMER: Information is power, and I think Boondocksaint has done a great deal to spread knowledge. The brit idea of allowing an option between several types of rigs (to keep things on the logsitical side somewhat realistic) and having the soldier choose, and making each type modular, may be the way to go?
I think we've all seen the army go through some "mucking around" with ORBATS and stuff (Pioneers to engineers, back, perhaps to infantry, etc). Some serious thinking is needed, serious solutions as well. I think boondocksaint has a great idea here.
-i got in a bit of poo early in the tour for saying something about our tac vest only holding 4 mags etc etc
well it only holds 4 mags! and that is NOT enough to fight with, some tic's i only fired 5 mags in 5 hours, in others i fired 10 mags in 5 minutes-i needed to get them quickly- thats why my pl all wore our own various rigs
*it cannot effectively hold enough ammo for a rifleman or a c-9 gunner OR an m-203 gunner( my c-9 gunners both used the old style webbing to hold 4 boxes)
*it doesnt hold enough water if you do somehow cram it full of gear that you need
***there are modular versions out there or quasi modular/fixed rigs that work much better for a great price- or adapt the brit idea of allowing an option between several approved rigs and adapting to the individual soldier-ive used the hockey player analogy before, no 2 guys dress exactly alike but they are all in the same uniform-it has to work for the individual, his life depends on it
I love (and often use) sports analogies. You make some excellent points, and sure hope that someone "up there" hears you, my earlier posts some time ago about the TV notwithstanding (anyone have a time machine so I can go back and amend what I put?)
DISCLAIMER: Information is power, and I think Boondocksaint has done a great deal to spread knowledge. The brit idea of allowing an option between several types of rigs (to keep things on the logsitical side somewhat realistic) and having the soldier choose, and making each type modular, may be the way to go?
I think we've all seen the army go through some "mucking around" with ORBATS and stuff (Pioneers to engineers, back, perhaps to infantry, etc). Some serious thinking is needed, serious solutions as well. I think boondocksaint has a great idea here.
- Reaction score
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In no particular order, some other ramblings I haven't slotted anywhere, but some of your pm's have prompted more lucid thinking;
1- I mentioned ammo resupply earlier, our PL had various 'Ready' cans on the outside of the Lav's-- each section had 25 ish spare mags ( dont tell CQ) and had them in an ammo can strapped to the Lav- as well as a can of C-9 and M203- grenades were in with the mags- unpackaged with electrical tape around the spoon and body- some fights we used 15 or mags each and grenades.....lots, and M203 as well
2- the 60mm in our PL was in my Lav, stowed where the winch would go, the base plate and bipod already attached to the tube, all folded up it all fit with 2x 4 packs of HE--with an additional load in our Lav and spare ammo in other cars--deployed it every night-the ILL is great--and in the 'entry phase' of the Garmser fight we deployed the tube beside the Lav and took out a TB spotter who'd been calling in their own 60 mm fire on us ( a JDAM got their tube )
3- Drop bags should be incorporated into a new mag change drill--most of my platoon used drop bags--they're a semi-rigid bag similar to a chalk bag climbers use- instead of trying to put a mag back in its slot, you simply dump it in the bag which is cinched however tight you want the opening--it speeds up a mag change by several seconds
a) several people have said ' why not just drop the mag on the ground?'-- in several fights those empty mags were rebombed and used, so they arent disposable, yes you lose some here and there ( there's spares)
b) the main reason believe it or not, is muscle memory--most of us were incapable of actually just letting the mag fall to the ground--years of putting the damn thing away is ingrained in us--fear of CQ may have something to do with this, but mostly muscle memory
4- I mentioned my P-L earlier ( Platoon Leader, yes it's American, it caught on with some platoons ) I dont want to give the illusion he just sat back and watched the fight or called in fire missions- he was in the thick of the fighting like everyone else-he went in doors- he fought up front and nasty like all the lads--as did our W.O., he was fond of grabbing the C-6 from the poor gunner who humped it ( sangin video ) and fired it--you could hear them bickering and swearing at each other in the middle of a fight
gunner-' feck you i humped it im shooting it'
WO-' dude come on just let me shoot it a little'
gunner-' did you carry it?'
WO-' i'll carry it next time i promise'
gunner-'you said that last time
5- the Chimo's-- they also fought as hard as everyone else, and hopefully some of them on here can relay some of their experiences as well, when my Lav was broken for awhile, I had my sect in a Chimo Lav with their guys driving-gunning-crew commanding- you dont train for that stuff, it just works out
6- Humour- wasnt sure if I should rank this as postworthy or not, you can decide--Canadians have an odd blend of humour, even in combat, it's a stress reliever, it takes your mind off what is happening etc, I've heard people yell
" where do want your well?"
" is this where the shura is?"
and a smattering of other things as well that evoked laughter in the middle of a gun fight--it happens, it doesnt make you a freak or abnormal, the Americans we had fighting with us would sometimes look at us and shake their heads, but we'd get them to crack a smile usually--you hit every emotional high and low there is before/during and after a fight, I've never cried or laughed so much in all my life as I have those 7 months ( I didnt cry during fights)
7-The effect of fighting with allies--not sure what it is exactly that makes us ( Canadians ) want to prove our worth when we have Americans or Brits around, but its there. The biggest compliment to us when Americans would say " thank God you guys were here for this fight", and mean it.
8- Fight harder than the enemy--it sounds obvious--but if you've ever played sports and played a lesser caliber team, you may find yourself playing down to their level. It happens in a fight sometimes also. The more desparate your situation, the harder you fight, but you need to fight like that all the time, not every taliban is a good fighter, many are, but the weaker ones dont deserve any less aggresive destruction just cause they arent fighting well ( you can tell quickly what your up against )
-an American 2 star general visited us before a battle in Panjawi and summed it up by saying " if you kill the crap out of them once, really kill him good, you wont ever have to fight that same guy again"
1- I mentioned ammo resupply earlier, our PL had various 'Ready' cans on the outside of the Lav's-- each section had 25 ish spare mags ( dont tell CQ) and had them in an ammo can strapped to the Lav- as well as a can of C-9 and M203- grenades were in with the mags- unpackaged with electrical tape around the spoon and body- some fights we used 15 or mags each and grenades.....lots, and M203 as well
2- the 60mm in our PL was in my Lav, stowed where the winch would go, the base plate and bipod already attached to the tube, all folded up it all fit with 2x 4 packs of HE--with an additional load in our Lav and spare ammo in other cars--deployed it every night-the ILL is great--and in the 'entry phase' of the Garmser fight we deployed the tube beside the Lav and took out a TB spotter who'd been calling in their own 60 mm fire on us ( a JDAM got their tube )
3- Drop bags should be incorporated into a new mag change drill--most of my platoon used drop bags--they're a semi-rigid bag similar to a chalk bag climbers use- instead of trying to put a mag back in its slot, you simply dump it in the bag which is cinched however tight you want the opening--it speeds up a mag change by several seconds
a) several people have said ' why not just drop the mag on the ground?'-- in several fights those empty mags were rebombed and used, so they arent disposable, yes you lose some here and there ( there's spares)
b) the main reason believe it or not, is muscle memory--most of us were incapable of actually just letting the mag fall to the ground--years of putting the damn thing away is ingrained in us--fear of CQ may have something to do with this, but mostly muscle memory
4- I mentioned my P-L earlier ( Platoon Leader, yes it's American, it caught on with some platoons ) I dont want to give the illusion he just sat back and watched the fight or called in fire missions- he was in the thick of the fighting like everyone else-he went in doors- he fought up front and nasty like all the lads--as did our W.O., he was fond of grabbing the C-6 from the poor gunner who humped it ( sangin video ) and fired it--you could hear them bickering and swearing at each other in the middle of a fight
gunner-' feck you i humped it im shooting it'
WO-' dude come on just let me shoot it a little'
gunner-' did you carry it?'
WO-' i'll carry it next time i promise'
gunner-'you said that last time
5- the Chimo's-- they also fought as hard as everyone else, and hopefully some of them on here can relay some of their experiences as well, when my Lav was broken for awhile, I had my sect in a Chimo Lav with their guys driving-gunning-crew commanding- you dont train for that stuff, it just works out
6- Humour- wasnt sure if I should rank this as postworthy or not, you can decide--Canadians have an odd blend of humour, even in combat, it's a stress reliever, it takes your mind off what is happening etc, I've heard people yell
" where do want your well?"
" is this where the shura is?"
and a smattering of other things as well that evoked laughter in the middle of a gun fight--it happens, it doesnt make you a freak or abnormal, the Americans we had fighting with us would sometimes look at us and shake their heads, but we'd get them to crack a smile usually--you hit every emotional high and low there is before/during and after a fight, I've never cried or laughed so much in all my life as I have those 7 months ( I didnt cry during fights
) 7-The effect of fighting with allies--not sure what it is exactly that makes us ( Canadians ) want to prove our worth when we have Americans or Brits around, but its there. The biggest compliment to us when Americans would say " thank God you guys were here for this fight", and mean it.
8- Fight harder than the enemy--it sounds obvious--but if you've ever played sports and played a lesser caliber team, you may find yourself playing down to their level. It happens in a fight sometimes also. The more desparate your situation, the harder you fight, but you need to fight like that all the time, not every taliban is a good fighter, many are, but the weaker ones dont deserve any less aggresive destruction just cause they arent fighting well ( you can tell quickly what your up against )
-an American 2 star general visited us before a battle in Panjawi and summed it up by saying " if you kill the crap out of them once, really kill him good, you wont ever have to fight that same guy again"
- Reaction score
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Humour, and laughing, are (from evolution, I believe) nature's way of relieving stress. I can not even imagine the stress you guys were under, so, it makes sense. And I think that once the troops stop laughing, there's something wrong. Now, I'm not saying that we make light of EVERYTHING, but sometimes the proper Simpson's reference at the right time can make a world of difference. I can only imagine my reaction on hearing someone say "Is this where the shura is?" I probably would have bust a gut!boondocksaint said:6- Humour- wasnt sure if I should rank this as postworthy or not, you can decide--Canadians have an odd blend of humour, even in combat, it's a stress reliever, it takes your mind off what is happening etc, I've heard people yell
" where do want your well?"
" is this where the shura is?"
and a smattering of other things as well that evoked laughter in the middle of a gun fight--it happens, it doesnt make you a freak or abnormal, the Americans we had fighting with us would sometimes look at us and shake their heads, but we'd get them to crack a smile usually--you hit every emotional high and low there is before/during and after a fight, I've never cried or laughed so much in all my life as I have those 7 months ( I didnt cry during fights
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BDS -- great AAR's -- I hope these are getting out (and rammed down peoples throats)
I'm flying out of Ottawa tomorrow to Ed - so hopefully I can get together with you guys again (this time I will make the Hhour :-[)
Plus if you guys want to do some shooting I have a tickle trunk of optics and stuff coming out to visit.
Maybe we can work on "#4's" Immediate reaction drills to lost mag
I'm flying out of Ottawa tomorrow to Ed - so hopefully I can get together with you guys again (this time I will make the Hhour :-[)
Plus if you guys want to do some shooting I have a tickle trunk of optics and stuff coming out to visit.
Maybe we can work on "#4's" Immediate reaction drills to lost mag
These lessons are invaluable...each will take from it as he can...but all will remember them when the time comes. Excellent.
ps: the black humor is infectious and we loved it as much then as you do now...it is never forgotten and, you are right, there's something about cracking up in the middle of a firefight.
ps: the black humor is infectious and we loved it as much then as you do now...it is never forgotten and, you are right, there's something about cracking up in the middle of a firefight.
medicineman
Army.ca Legend
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I've always been a firm believer in laughter is the cure all for everything - and one of the top 3 stress relievers around. Getting someone to crack up while everything is going to shite around you is a good way to get people to refocus, have a big nervous energy dump, and get on with things like it was the normal thing to do. I do draw the line at practical jokes during minefield breaches/extractions...
MM
MM
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Ref the message by the CDS (on Internet communications), maybe we shouldn't discuss those things publicly?
Max
Max
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If there is something you think shouldn't be here, report it to a mod. I have just put a post back that had been taken off and subsequently was cleared a few minutes ago by someone with experience in these matters.
Thanks for the AARs, good reading and good job!
+1 on the concussion grenades. If you can trade for some from the US guys, they are designed for confined spaces, and they are lighter to carry than a frag.
*Still looking for a contract that involves calling in JDAMs and fragging rooms :crybaby:
+1 on the concussion grenades. If you can trade for some from the US guys, they are designed for confined spaces, and they are lighter to carry than a frag.
*Still looking for a contract that involves calling in JDAMs and fragging rooms :crybaby:
