Afghan Detainee Mega Thread

[geo]

(I was attempting to explain to him... not you )

 

[Brad Sallows]

>OK....this is a joke, right.....?

No, I'm serious.  Once they're free men, the Afghans can pick them up if the Afghans wish or let them go.  Last time I checked Canada was under no obligation to protect anyone not in Canadian custody, otherwise our soldiers would be constantly intervening between locals and police in every shithole to which we send soldiers.  If the ex-detainees resume hostilities, eventually one of two things will happen: they'll be KIA, or be picked up again.  On the second go, once a positive ID is established there's a straightforward prosecution (for breaking parole) and into a proper clink (not a prison camp) they go.

 

[DocBacon]

And Brad, you know that if we let that happen - you know, the due course thing - we'll either be castigated in the press for "allowing" recidivism or for not providing a proper environment for the effective rehabilitation of the wayward. 

But seriously folks, we're truly stuffed here since the process of creating a safe opportunity for the evolution of good Afghan governance involves risk and exposure for the troops and death or capture for the enemy.  If we fail to provide a safe enough environment we're losing, if we have to kill the terrs we're losing, and if we lose any of ours....

It seems that the Canadian public is just not prepared for the cost of creating a civil society from whole cloth.  I believe our soldiers know, and are prepared to make the investment, but the CBC is perched on the shoulders of every soldier there just waiting to create a sh**storm if anyone gets hurt.

So, as a previous poster has pointed out, if the treatment of prisoners becomes too onerous there won't be as many prisoners taken.

 

[TCBF]

... So, as a previous poster has pointed out, if the treatment of prisoners becomes too onerous there won't be as many prisoners taken.

- Well, I was kind of hoping I wasn't being that direct.

;D

 

[DocBacon]

Well, TCBF, history has that habit of repeating itself. 

 

[GAP]

It looks like the same theme is going to be used all through the various NATO countries.....

Dutch accused of complicity in torture in Afghanistanby
Vanessa Mock 13-11-2007
Article Link

Dutch forces in Afghanistan have been accused exposing their detainees to torture and flouting international obligations. Amnesty International says troops from NATO's ISAF mission in the country are handing over detainees to Afghan authorities, despite consistent reports that these are using methods such as whipping and beatings against inmates.

"There is evidence that torture takes place within the Afghan detention system," says Susi Dennison of Amnesty's Europen Union office, adding:

"There is no way that ISAF troops - including those of the Dutch government - can know that torture will not take place when they transfer detainees to Afghan authorities."

Worthless safeguards
The Dutch, British and Belgian and other ISAF contingents have signed a deal with Afghan authorities to ensure that inmates are treated in accordance with international standards. This 'Memorandum of Understanding' should guarantee these forces and the International Committee of the Red Cross full access to the detainees.

But in all these cases, Ms Dennison insists that this Memorandum "is not being fulfilled and independent human rights monitors are not getting full access."
More on link

 

[Eggy]

Amnesty is accusing all those countries without having any facts. They suspect torture taking place or have heard anything to that extent and suddenly all the NATO nations are complicit in torturing Afghans. It probably works with the media lapping everything up as long as itás negative news for the military.

 

[Kirkhill]

"There is no way that ISAF troops - including those of the Dutch government - can know that torture will not take place when they transfer detainees to Afghan authorities."

Three readings and I finally think I have the sense of this sentence.  The wonders of double negatives.

There is no way that I can know that I will not choke on a chicken bone the next time that I eat at KFC either.  The future is always unknowable.  But as is being pointed out, this is probably more about Amnesty finding uniform talking point that they can use to raise their profile across the board.

 

[McG]

Opposition claims cover-up in alleged detainee abuse
Updated Thu. Nov. 15 2007 8:14 PM ET
The Canadian Press

OTTAWA -- Detailed, specific, first-hand accounts about the abuse of Canadian-captured Afghan prisoners were in the hands of the Conservative government 48 hours after the first media reports appeared last spring, court records show.

As cabinet ministers downplayed or even denied the existence of the allegations, the government had two reports that prisoners complained they were stepped on, kicked while blindfolded, subjected to electric shocks, or made to stand up for days.

During the first week of the scandal, Prime Minister Stephen Harper and Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day consistently denied any evidence of torture.

Internal government e-mails and situational reports prepared by Canadian officials in Kandahar, released as part of a Federal Court action by Amnesty International and the B.C. Civil Liberties Association, show diplomats and investigators spoke to two prisoners, who provided graphic statements on April 25, 2007.

Those claims were forwarded immediately to Ottawa.

The revelation has opposition parties wondering how much the government knew and when it became aware that prisoners, captured by Canadians but handed over to Afghan authorities, were potentially abused in violation of international law.

Published reports on April 23 suggested as many as 30 prisoners had been mistreated by the Afghans.

Two days later, Corrections Canada officers and an official at Canada's provincial reconstruction base conducted a prison visit. Reports were filed that night to both the Foreign Affairs Department and the Correctional Service of Canada.

"To our surprise, even though NDS officers accompanied us throughout the visit, two prisoners came forward with complaints of mistreatment,'' wrote Gavin Buchan, the political director of the reconstruction base.

On April 26, in response to a question in the House of Commons from deputy Liberal leader Michael Ignatieff, Harper described claims of prisoner abuse as "baseless allegations.''

Day was also quoted that day as saying: "We have no proof of the allegations.''

In the same question period, he described published reports of abuse as "false allegations'' and accused the opposition of believing Taliban propaganda.

He conceded Canadian officials had visited Sarposa prison in Kandahar and made only a passing reference to their findings.

"We are concerned about those people,'' he said, answering a question by Liberal House Leader Ralph Goodale. "Two of the individuals talked to our officials and our officers raised the issue of their being in leg irons. We do not think they should be in leg irons.''

Government House Leader Peter Van Loan was even more adamant when he appeared on CTV's Question Period on April 29: "We have yet to see one specific allegation of torture. If they have one, we'd be happy to chase it down.''

It wasn't until five days after the reports were filed that Day reluctantly conceded that the leg-iron allegations he had spoken about were more serious and likely involved torture.

"Yes, they have actually talked to detainees about the possibility if they were tortured or not,'' Day said on April 30, in response to a reporter's question. "They actually had a couple of incidents where detainees said they were.''

But Buchan's heavily censored April 25 report showed the torture claims of the inmates were obvious from the start.

One prisoner "went on to state that he had been interrogated by foreigners. He alleged that (censored) beat him and gave electric shocks. He also stated he was bound by his feet and hands and was made to stand for 10 days.''

A second inmate complained "he had been kicked and beaten while blindfolded'' and that guards "had stepped on his belly.''

Out of 19 prisoners viewed during the visit, the report said seven indicated they were captured by Canadian troops.

"When asked about prisoner treatment we did indicate that two inmates had stated they had been tortured,'' said the nine-page document.

"While we saw no immediate evidence of abuse, matters would require further investigation and/or corroboration. The response regarding the prisoner who stated (censored) had abused him was that he had been questioned by (Afghan National Police).''

Canadian diplomats on the ground pursued the claims, but were told by the Afghan intelligence chief in Kandahar "there was no substance, and that it was a transparent attempt by hard-core Taliban to discredit the government,'' said an April 30 email.

Liberal defence critic Denis Coderre says the government was evidently eager to accept the explanation of the people accused of torture.

"Franky this was a cover-up,'' he said Thursday. "This government misled the House. This government lied to the Canadian people.''

It remains unclear how much of the reports were shared directly with Harper, Day and other members of the Conservative front bench -- even though the government was under daily attacks over published reports of abuse.

Late Thursday, a spokesman for Foreign Affairs Minister Maxime Bernier dismissed the criticism as an opposition attempt to grab headlines.

"Since signing this supplementary arrangement, there have been real improvements in the monitoring and tracking of prisoners,'' said Neil Hrab in an e-mail response.

"The behaviour of the opposition, while sensationalist, is not surprising because they refuse to admit that the process is working.''

Hrab's comments did not answer the central question of why the Conservatives chose to deny and downplay the first-hand accounts of possible torture.

The abuse revelations prompted the government to sign a revised prisoner deal with the Afghans, one that allowed Canadian authorities to check on the staus of those captured.

Since last spring seven prisoners have complained about torture, the latest being the most serious case where diplomats saw evidence of physical abuse.

In the Commons on Thursday, Bernier said he has spoken with his Afghan counterpart, who's promised a full investigation.

"Somehow I don't think a phone call is going to cut it,'' NDP defence critic Dawn Black said.

"The government's policy is to hand over detainees to Afghan authorities and hope they do the best they can.''

The sense that the torture claims are part of an insurgent conspiracy still lingers.

Defence Minister Peter MacKay told the Commons that he's sure Coderre has "more questions to pose on behalf of Taliban prisoners."

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071115/afghan_prisoners_071115/20071115?hub=Canada

 

[Brad Sallows]

Allegations are not evidence.  I'd at least like the media to distinguish one from the other, determine which (perhaps both) a source provides and to what extent, and be clear which is being referred to in each instance.

 

[Reccesoldier]

Allegations are not evidence.  I'd at least like the media to distinguish one from the other, determine which (perhaps both) a source provides and to what extent, and be clear which is being referred to in each instance.

I've heard the Media use the word "allegation" but it's used interchangeably with other words like, oddly enough, evidence... As in "Amnesty International says it has evidence that..." Therefore the word has lost practically all meaning to the public through this news speak tactic of joining words with definite legal connotations to words that imply hearsay and innuendo.

 

[GAP]

Afghan prisons: What Ottawa knew
Bloody floors, constant use of leg irons and few checks on authority revealed in declassified government files
PAUL KORING AND ALAN FREEMAN From Friday's Globe and Mail November 16, 2007 at 4:18 AM EST
Article Link

WASHINGTON, OTTAWA — The Harper government knew prison conditions were appalling long before The Globe and Mail published a series of stories last April detailing the abuse and torture of prisoners turned over by Canadian soldiers to Afghanistan's notorious secret police, documents released this week show.

The heavily censored documents also show that at the same time as senior ministers were denying evidence of abuse, officials on the ground in Afghanistan were collecting first-hand accounts from prisoners of mistreatment.

Although large sections of the more than 1,000 pages of documents and messages between Ottawa, Kabul and Kandahar remain blacked out, two disturbing pictures emerge from the pile.

First, that despite working hard to create the impression of careful follow-up in monitoring of detainees, efforts have been hampered by a chaotic and unreliable Afghan system in which scores, perhaps hundreds, of detainees have vanished.
More on link

 

[old medic]

French foreign minister defends Canada's treatment of Afghan prisoners
By THE CANADIAN PRESS
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/War_Terror/2007/11/16/4661859-cp.html

PARIS - The French foreign affairs minister is defending the treatment of Afghan prisoners by Canadian soldiers.

Bernard Kouchner said Friday that France has total confidence in Canada when it comes to the way captured Afghans have been treated.

The French minister expressed support for what he called his Canadian friends after meeting in Paris with federal Foreign Affairs Minister Maxime Bernier.

Kouchner says he is confident human rights and international agreements have been respected.

Bernier told reporters that Afghan authorities have assured him they will carry out a detailed and transparent investigation of prisoner treatment that he has requested.

Kouchner also says he hopes that Canada and France will work together to help open up access to health care for the civilian population.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I wouldn't have expected that.

 

[MarkOttawa]

General rules out NATO-run prisons
Remarks follow claims of abuse in Afghan jails
http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/277302

Setting up separate NATO-run jails to hold battlefield detainees who might otherwise be tortured is out of the question, the alliance's military chief says.

Gen. Ray Henault, the Canadian chair of NATO's military committee, said creating detention facilities that are run by the International Security Assistance Force would put too much demand on the already difficult Afghanistan mission and undermine the Afghan government, which has responsibility for its own penal system.

"We consider this to be something done in concert with international standards. That's the way we intend to continue doing business," Henault said...

Liberal MP Denis Coderre said the documents prove "Canada has violated the Geneva Convention" and "must stop the transfers, bring back the prisoners and respect this convention."

Henault rejected accusations there is "systematic" torture in Afghan jails, or at the hands of its secret police, and said he is not aware of any individual cases of abuse.

"But it would probably be inappropriate for me to say that there is nothing like that that ever happens in Afghanistan."

An aide to Henault added that probes of torture allegations are "going to put the pressure where it needs to be, which is on the Afghan government." Indeed, Afghan President Hamid Karzai has already warned the country's police against using physical abuse and has launched an inquiry into torture allegations.

In the meantime, Henault said responsibility for improving the country's prisons falls to organizations like the Red Cross, Afghanistan's human rights body and the government, not NATO.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[kilekaldar]

Canada quietly halted Afghan detainee transfers

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080123/afghan_080123/20080123?hub=TopStories

Updated Wed. Jan. 23 2008 6:45 PM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

Canadian soldiers halted the transfer of Afghan detainees last November, after a "credible allegation" that a prisoner had been tortured by local authorities in Kandahar, according to a letter from the Department of Justice.

Earlier this week the B.C. Civil Liberties Association (BCCLA) released documents it said were given to federal government officials and that detailed reports of detainee abuse.

Large portions of the documents were censored but they contained interviews with detainees who claimed they had been "whipped with cables, shocked with electricity and/or otherwise hurt" while in Afghan custody in Kandahar.

The group released the documents as part of its legal efforts to pressure the government into taking action on the issue. Amnesty International has also called on Canada to stop transferring detainees.

On Tuesday, the Department of Justice sent a letter to the groups' lawyers, saying that soldiers had temporarily halted the transfers.

"Canadian authorities were informed on November 5, 2007, by Canada's monitoring team, of a credible allegation of mistreatment pertaining to one Canadian-transferred detainee held in an Afghan detention facility," wrote senior counsel J. Sanderson Graham. "As a consequence there have been no transfers of detainees to Afghan authorities since that date. The allegation is under investigation by the Afghan authorities. Canada will resume transferring detainees when it believes it can do so in accordance with its international legal obligations.

Amnesty International said Wednesday that the government had kept the decision to halt transfers a "secret," and revealed the move only because of legal action by the groups.

"The Government's decision amounts to a concession that the May 2007 Monitoring Agreement has failed to prevent torture by Afghan authorities," Jason Gratl, president of the BCCLA, said in a press release Wednesday.

"It is unfortunate that the Government has chosen, yet again, to reveal new developments on detainees only when an injunction hearing is pending. The Canadian public has a right to know this information and shouldn't be hearing about it only because the government is being sued."

Amnesty International and BCCLA said they will continue legal action against the government because officials have not stopped transfers "indefinitely."

More to come...

 

[The Bread Guy]

And here's the news release (.pdf) from those taking the credit.....

GOVERNMENT CEASES AFGHAN DETAINEE TRANSFERS
British Columbia Civil Liberties Association news release, 23 Jan 08

The Government of Canada has informed the BC Civil Liberties Association and Amnesty International Canada that it has ordered the Canadian Forces to cease all transfers of detainees into Afghan custody due to allegations of torture, effective November 5, 2007. The Government kept this decision a secret until now.

“The Government’s decision amounts to a concession that the May 2007 Monitoring Agreement has failed to prevent torture by Afghan authorities,” said Jason Gratl, president of the BCCLA. “It is unfortunate that the Government has chosen, yet again, to reveal new developments on detainees only when an injunction hearing is pending. The Canadian public has a right to know this information and shouldn’t be hearing about it only because the government is being sued.”

“The government could have anticipated at the outset that monitoring of detainees is inadequate to deal with the risk of torture. The torture of detainees that occurred since May 3, 2007 was both predictable and avoidable,” said Alex Neve, secretary general of Amnesty International Canada.

Amnesty and BCCLA’s injunction application, set for January 24, 2008, will proceed because the Canadian Government has refused to stop transfers indefinitely or agree to give notice to the organizations when detainee transfers will resume. In light of the new information, Federal Court Justice Anne Mactavish has ordered Brigadier General Joseph Paul Andre Deschamps to appear tomorrow and give testimony before arguments begin.

The application to determine whether the Charter of Rights and Freedoms binds Canadian Forces operating abroad to refrain from transferring prisoners of war to face a significant risk of torture continues to be set for January 25, 2008. Both motions will take place at 9:30 am in the Supreme Court of Canada building in Ottawa.

 

[Mike Baker]

Oh I love this comment (not in the article, a comment made by someone there)

The Conservative Government of Canada SUPPORTS torture!
as long as it's part of the war on "terrorisim"

: I hate people who know nothing about what they are talking about.

BZ on the Government with this.

 

[George Wallace]

???

So?  Are we now using a "Catch and Release" program?  Are the Taliban now listed as an "Endangered Species"?  Or have we now adopted the "Paracowboy Method"?  (Those not familiar with this "Method" - Please use the Search Function and read.)  Perhaps we are now bringing them to Canada and billeting them with Registered members of the New Democratic Party?  Have we set up a Gulag in some remote area of the world where we detain them?  This is ridiculous.

 

[geo]

I'm with ya George.... what have we done with em since then?
Has immigration Canada set up shop at KAF so we can put the TB on the dole here at home?

If anyone is asking.... Han island is still uninhabitated & available.... also, considering both we & Denmark are involved with the TB, this could be a win,/win situation...... but only if someone is asking

Cheers!