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Afghan Detainee Mega Thread

  • Thread starter Thread starter rceme_rat
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sgf......have you actually been somewhere in this world and seen anything other than Canada?
 
Opposition MPs tee off on Afghan detainees issue
Updated Mon. Jan. 28 2008 3:32 PM ET
CTV.ca News Staff

Opposition parties used their first question period of 2008 to batter the government on the Afghan detainees issue, with a focus on honesty and openness.

"Why did the prime minister hide the truth from Canadians?" Liberal Leader Stephane Dion asked Prime Minister Stephen Harper on Monday in the House of Commons.

"That allegation is completely false," Harper shot back.

The Canadian military stopped transferring prisoners to the Afghan authorities on Nov. 6, the day after an allegation of torture was identified.

Dion noted that Defence Minister Peter MacKay was in Afghanistan at the time and yet it took three months for the stoppage to become publicly known.

Harper said the government revealed there was "credible evidence of a particular case of abuse."

The information was revealed to a court last week "to show clearly that the Canadian Forces ... always respect our humanitarian and international obligations," he said in French.

Deputy Liberal Leader Michael Ignatieff noted that on Nov. 22, MacKay told the House there was not a single proven instance of detainee abuse in Afghanistan.

Given that MacKay was in Kandahar when the abuse case surfaced on Nov. 5, "was the minister asleep, out of the loop, or did he knowingly withhold information from this House?" Ignatieff asked.

"What I said at this time was absolutely true," MacKay said, adding the detainee transfer agreement remains in place.

Under the enhanced May 2007 agreement, Canada has greater access to prisoners and can be more proactive, the minister said.

NDP Leader Jack Layton also focused on the detainee issue, as did Bloc Quebecois MP Claude Bachand.

Layton noted that U.S. authorities issued press releases on prisoner captures and transfers in Afghanistan. "Why is this government ... continuing to keep Canadians in the dark?" he said.

Because the transfer agreement with the Afghan government remains in place, there may be more transfers. "That's why the government hasn't announced there won't be transfers, because there could well be," Harper said.

He added if Canada were to follow the American model, it would be sending prisoners to the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

"To be clear, that is not the policy of this government," Harper said.

The Manley panel

Bloc Quebecois Leader Gilles Duceppe used his questions to ask Harper about the government's response to the Manley panel's recommendations on the Canadian mission in Afghanistan.

Harper said earlier he would be holding a vote on extending the mission, which is set to end in its current configuration on February 2009, sometime this spring.

There is a major NATO summit scheduled for April in Bucharest, Romania, at which the issue of more troops to help Canada in the insurgent hotbed of Kandahar province will be discussed.

"Will the prime minister act in a responsible manner and hold the vote on our mission before going to the summit?" Duceppe asked.

"This is a very important issue. I hope all parties in this House will take the time we need to consider the matter and make our decisions," Harper said.

Duceppe said Harper wants Canada to stay in Afghanistan at any price.

Harper said the mission's extension depends on getting additional troop from Canada's NATO allies.

The Liberals avoided the Manley report.

CTV's Graham Richardson told Newsnet that the Manley report -- Manley is a former Liberal cabinet minister -- puts the Liberals in a difficult position. Liberals want to end Canada's combat role in February 2009 while the Manley report recommends the combat part of the mission continue, but shift to increased training for Afghan soldiers and police.

None of the leaders asked questions about the economy despite the recent turmoil.

....
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080128/parl_resumes_080128/20080128?hub=TopStories
 
>The fact is, as tough and cool as this sounds we as a society are judged not by how we treat those we deem worthy but by how we treat those who are categorically UNWORTHY.

I'd prefer we be judged as a society on the basis of how we treat those who are categorically UNLUCKY, with the UNWORTHY understanding that they are SOL and had best stay out of our way because we have neither time nor money to spare for the welfare of anyone except the UNLUCKY.
 
Detainee fallout: take few, free quickly
Details of new policy – and top soldier's outrage – emerge as government ministers refuse comment, citing operational secrecy

MICHAEL VALPY

From Tuesday's Globe and Mail

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080129.wdetainees29/BNStory/Afghanistan/home

January 29, 2008 at 2:00 AM EST

The Canadian Forces are holding insurgent detainees at their Kandahar Air Force base rather than turning them over to Afghan authorities, are taking fewer prisoners and are quickly releasing some of them.

The information, provided to The Globe and Mail by sources, answers questions about Canada's new policy for handling detainees that Prime Minister Stephen Harper and other ministers repeatedly refused to provide Monday, citing the need for combat operational secrecy.

Reports have also emerged that General Rick Hillier, Chief of the Defence Staff, was furious with the Prime Minister's Office's handling of the military's new policy and angrily telephoned Mr. Harper Friday night after letting it be known he was “tired of being used” in political controversy.

After the revelation last week that Canadians ceased turning detainees over to the Afghan authorities in early November after discovering credible evidence of torture, the Prime Minister's Office initially said it hadn't been informed of this by senior officers.

Gen. Hillier was said to be “absolutely livid” when he learned of this.

Mr. Harper's chief spokeswoman, Sandra Buckler, retracted the statement the next day but refused to say where the detainees were being held.

Mr. Harper told the House of Commons Monday that his government will “never” answer questions about how many prisoners Canadian troops take or where they are kept. He also said the bilateral agreement governing the transfer of prisoners to Afghan authorities is still in place.

However, on Nov. 14, Germany's international broadcaster Deutsche Welle quoted German General Egon Ramms as saying NATO was aware that transferred detainees were being abused by Afghan authorities and that Canadian troops in Kandahar had stopped handing over prisoners until their safety and human rights could be guaranteed.

The presence of a detention facility at Kandahar Air Force base (KAF) has long been known. Prior to Nov. 5, detainees were held at the facility until they either were turned over to Afghan authorities or released. Now sources say either their detention is continued at KAF or they are released – reports Mr. Harper will not confirm.

One well-placed source who spoke to The Globe and Mail Monday on condition of anonymity said that, in addition to being told that Canadian detainees were being held at Kandahar Air Force base, he understood some insurgents detained in joint Canadian Forces-Afghan National Army combat operations were being turned over to the Afghan military in a “grey zone” action.

He said he has been told that Canadians have been content in some cases to allow operations to be labelled as Afghan-led military proceedings. Thus, detainees passed into Afghan military hands with no records kept.

Since the Canadian military's decision to stop transferring detainees became known, there has been rife speculation on what is being done with them, with three options being mentioned: that Canadians were holding detainees at KAF; that Canadians were transferring detainees to the Americans; and that Canadians had simply stopped detaining people.

Transferring detainees to the Americans would be, in the words of one federal politician, “the red-hot issue” because of the harsh interrogation techniques the U.S. military uses.

Janice Gross Stein, director of University of Toronto's Munk Centre for International Studies and co-author of a widely lauded book on Canada's military engagement in Afghanistan, said, “I would be astonished if the Canadian Forces were transferring detainees to the Americans, absolutely astonished.”

She also said she had not heard of any “grey zone” transfers but commented: “That would be a very dangerous thing to do.”

When Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion and deputy leader Michael Ignatieff visited Afghanistan earlier this month they were briefed on the policy change but did not see detainees, Mr. Ignatieff said Monday. He said they were given few details and he could not confirm or deny whether detainees were being interned at KAF.
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
sgf......have you actually been somewhere in this world and seen anything other than Canada?

one of the reasons that Canada is even in Afghanistan is  respect for human rights, so honestly thats why I was taken aback at that statement. I also feel that neither the libs or tories have taken care of the detainee problem and thats not right and frankly the problem is still not being taken care off.
 
Actually, it has been taken care of, and is being taken care of.  Once a credible allegation of abuse/torture came to light, the CF immediately ceased prisoner transfers IAW the agreement with Kabul.  The government was informed.  The opposition was informed.  Now it's a big stink, because Canadians weren't informed. 
 
It's a big stink because Sandra Buckler tried to blame Hillier for not informing the government and she was forced to retreat from such a bold faced lie. 
 
sandra was acting on orders of the PMO office, she certainly did not say this on her own accord
 
sgf said:
sandra was acting on orders of the PMO office, she certainly did not say this on her own accord
And what evidence do you have for this?  If she took orders from *someone* within the PMO, who was it? 
 
her boss, the PM ..who else...
with the record that Harper has on allowing anyone in his office and cabinet to speak on their own, do you honestly think that what she said was not on direct orders from him? ... and if she had spoken on her own, he would have fired her by now
 
sgf said:
her boss, the PM ..who else...
with the record that Harper has on allowing anyone in his office and cabinet to speak on their own, do you honestly think that what she said was not on direct orders from him? ... and if she had spoken on her own, he would have fired her by now

You know talking like you have insider knowledge or know people (sandra?) personally in this group will just get you bombarded by calls to...
PROVE IT
 
Watch this interview with Maj.-Gen. (ret'd) Lewis MacKenzie on "Mike Duffy Live". Love that third rum and Coke on the beach.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/HTMLTemplate?tf=/ctv/mar/video/new_player.html&cf=ctv/mar/ctv.cfg&hub=TopStories&video_link_high=http://esi.ctv.ca/datafeed/urlgen2.aspx?vid=28766&video_link_low=http://esi.ctv.ca/datafeed/urlgen2.aspx?vid=28766&clip_start=00:00:00.00&clip_end=00:07:27.00&clip_caption=Mike%20Duffy%20Live:%20Maj.-Gen.%20(ret'd)%20Lewis%20Mackenzie%20on%20the%20question%20period%20debates%20focusing%20on%20the%20mission&clip_id=28766&subhub=video&no_ads=no&sortdate=20080129&slug=rae_afghanistan_080129&archive=CTVNews

Here's the relevant bit from a CTV News story:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080129/rae_afghanistan_080129/20080129?hub=TopStories
...
According to Canadian Maj.-Gen. (Ret.) Lewis MacKenzie, the endless parliamentary uproar probably likely plays a role in the military's reason for keeping prisoner information to itself.

"Back in the Netherlands the people aren't hanging on every word the commander says," he told CTV's Mike Duffy Live on Tuesday evening, referring to one of three countries involved in the mission known to disclose prisoner information to its public.

"There are detainees being taken, they are being taken somewhere. I think commanders are getting somewhat teed off about how they're being micromanaged and micro-analyzed."

MacKenzie also responded to rumours the Kandahar airfield base -- which is staffed by many local citizens -- had been infiltrated by the Taliban.

"I can guarantee you it's been infiltrated," said the retired general. "There's never been a mission in my life where the locals don't infiltrate civilian staff.

"You assume you've been infiltrated," he added, noting a popular strategy is to disseminate false information throughout the base in order to fool those who may use it maliciously. "Some people back here seem to think (war is) some sort of sterile by-the-book type of activity. I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way."..

Mark
Ottawa
 
Reccesoldier said:
You know talking like you have insider knowledge or know people (sandra?) personally in this group will just get you bombarded by calls to...
PROVE IT

insider knowledge? only what every Canadian knows.. and how is what control Harper has over his Cabinet, the PMO, and his staff and his distain for the media...
do you honestly believe that Buckler spoke on her accord? with prior approval from the PMO office?
 
If you're allowed to just make shit up based on what you think is likely or many people would believe, what's the point in expecting anyone to hold a rational discussion with you?  Sure, your hypothesis seems likely.  But why not just prove it?
 
sgf said:
insider knowledge? only what every Canadian knows.. and how is what control Harper has over his Cabinet, the PMO, and his staff and his distain for the media...
do you honestly believe that Buckler spoke on her accord? with prior approval from the PMO office?

And I would argue that Canadians know very little.  The people who keep repeating these accusations are those that either have a political axe to grind or are in the business of amplifying small (often inconsequential) traits to sell newspapers.

As far as his "distain" for the Media, does demanding that the press actually investigate stories constitute distain?  Isn't that what journalism is?

You see, I've been told by someone close to the inner workings of the Liberal party that they made a concerted effort to feed news and information to the press in order to control the message.  As a result the press corps on the Hill became complacent, and instead of practicing due dillegence on a story merely regurgitated the message they were fed.

So when the current government took control and stopped the spoon feeding the press became indignant about doing their job.
 
you are probably right about Libs feeding stories, I dont doubt that at all. Actually Rick Mercer in his rant tonight seemed to be right on the mark regarding this

having said all that, where did Buckler get that information that she misspoke about..
 
sgf said:
having said all that, where did Buckler get that information that she misspoke about..
I don't know.  And neither do you.  Nobody knows, but I highly doubt that the PM told her to say "Tell them that the military didn't tell us", especially when he knew that the leader of the opposition was also aware of the situation.

The PM may have been born at night, but he wasn't born last night.
 
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