A&W Papa Burgers: The choice of Griffon pilots everywhere

[Blackadder1916]

. . .  This does not contravene the CARs nor does it impact on the B-GA-100 and our associated DIV flying orders.  I imagine that where this A&W is located does not qualify as a built up area either.

As this got me wondering about where this particular A&W was located, I googled and found a thread on another forum (aviation related) where the same topic is being discussed.
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=59007

A couple of posts did describe the location, so it's likely that it was within the built-up area of Kenora.

agree with STL we do it all the time , However these guys are pushing it . Im in Kenora all the time and in my wildest fantasy I would not land right next to one of the busiest intersections in the city for a burger . The cops had to to trafic duty while the burgers were getting cooked . I heard it all over CBC today . Im sure the CO will have something to say to his boys .

Livin the dream.. Go Root Bear

In YQK the cop shop is kitty corner to the A&W and right beside the ball diamond.

It is conceivable that the intrepid aviators of this tale called the local constabulary and asked for their assistance in securing a hamburger LZ.  The locals, being close to (and probably frequent patrons of) the A&W, may have suggested the ball diamond.  Being next door to the cop shop, they (the cops) may have already considered it as an expedient LZ for their own operations.

 

[Roy Harding]

But, Roy, the burning question is......was your mode of transportation quite as fancy?  hehehe 

Nope.  But my co-pilot is a pretty cute 120 lb Mastiff.  We draw looks.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Gee, maybe they should retro "investigate" all the helicoptors that used to land behind the McD's in Collingwood when the AMF Battery was in it's heyday.

Just a case of DND not having a clue how to deal with anything media once again.

 

[Bruce Williams]

This whole thing makes no sense to me. Pilots and Papa burgers?????? Give me a break. Now Teen Burgers would have made sense!

 

[SupersonicMax]

A couple of posts did describe the location, so it's likely that it was within the built-up area of Kenora.
In YQK the cop shop is kitty corner to the A&W and right beside the ball diamond.

Define Built-Up Area.  AFAIK, the civilian definition is much different than the military one.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Define Built-Up Area.  AFAIK, the civilian definition is much different than the military one.

I've never had occasion to define the term before, (probably like porn, hard to define but you know it when you see it) but I would assume that it is any area within the boundaries of a city or town that contained buildings or other man-made structures.  Though it is not included in the definitions listed in the CAR, it is unlikely that governmental authorities would leave the definition to individuals, so I did find this.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/commerce/policy/pl145.htm

The terms "city" or "town" are taken to mean a municipal entity incorporated as such. There are former towns, particularly in Ontario and Quebec, which have been absorbed by either townships or municipalities. These do not meet the current definition of "city" or "town" and authorities under CAR 702.22 or 703.36 should not be issued for these. Within the Province of Nova Scotia, "regional municipalities" shall be considered to be cities.

There is a significant body of jurisprudence regarding the interpretation of what constitutes "built-up", most of which is in the context of low flying violations. In general, "built-up" means a group of structures that are erected or elevators, service stations and so forth. A departmental legal opinion indicates that a dock could be considered such a structure, particularly if it can be shown that there is a risk of damage to property or injury to persons. In situations where there is some doubt, it is better to err on the side of caution and issue an authorization.

The word "within" in this context has been interpreted to mean substantially surrounded by the built-up area. In practical terms this would mean that a landing site would have to be surrounded on all four sides or at least to the point that a landing aircraft would overfly a structure at some point, or fly close enough to create a hazard. As an example, a landing site on the edge of a town or on a shoreline would not require an authorization if the landing could be accomplished without overflying a structure or creating a hazard to any property. . . .

Not having access to current military pubs, I wouldn't know what specific CF orders and regulations would have governed the situation.

As to whether there were other structures in the area, a picture is worth a thousand words.

 

[kratz]

I happily spent some of my leave in Kenora this past summer and remember the A&W area. I do not know flying regulations, but the ball field is an open area. If the landing area is controlled as quoted in the news, I would think it might fit tactical if not training standards IMO.

 

[lyned]

I saw 2 of these land behind the McD's in Brandon, MB for lunch a few years ago. I thought that was pretty cool.

 

[krustyrl]

We also did it at Smitty's on the TC Hiway  north of Moose Jaw when Base Rescue was shutting down back in the day.!  Way cool.!

 

[Good2Golf]

The CAR / B-GA-100 overflight of built-up areas limits applies to exactly that, overflight.  When you are on approach to a designated landing area (approved for use, and area secured by LE, etc...) that 2000' within 1000' of track no longer applies.  Imagine trying to get into any hospital helipad to drop off a casualty if you couldn't actually fly to the pad?

IMO, this was most certainly a compliant landing.  Aside from the candy machine beside the fuel dispatcher's desk, there is no food at the YQK airport and the airport is WELL outside of town, on the 17a loop.

2 more ¢,
G2G

p.s. I'm a Harvey's kind of guy, though A&W will do in a pinch.

p.p.s.  Loach, it is likely the pilot, BTW...note he's not wearing a monkey-harness.

 

[Loachman]

p.p.s.  Loach, it is likely the pilot, BTW...note he's not wearing a monkey-harness.

Or a vest.

Removed so as not to scare the patrons, or for better wallet access, I'd wager.

And still far easier than a pilot going in.

 

[Good2Golf]

....and still far easier than a pilot going in.

Ah, you mean what with all the complicated "You have control, unplugging..." to do?  ;D

 

[Loachman]

That and walking in, carrying everything back, collecting enough money from everybody else etcetera.

 

[aesop081]

That and walking in, carrying everything back, collecting enough money from everybody else etcetera.

You are right. All that is far to complex and requires too much effort for it to have been a pilot. FE it is.

 

[medic65726]

About 6 years ago we were on our way back to Thunder Bay from a cancelled medevac north of Kenora I believe. While our pilots went for fuel in Dryden, they dropped us (the 2 medics) in the vacant lot next to the Dryden Tim Hortons to pick up coffee and donuts for the ride home.
I guess it was just that no one got any pictures but I would have thought a big orange helicopter would have been more noticable than a camo one.
Got some strange looks from the Timmies staff and it was a kinda fun experience. Then just waited in the parking lot for them to pick us up.
Names, dates and other details witheld to protect the guilty.

 

[X-mo-1979]

And this my fellow soldiers is why physical fitness is important.If this FE had been a overweight turdmonkey waddling to the restaurant the media would have been all over it.thank you airman for representing the country well!

 

[ajp]

I could see them getting in trouble if they went through a drive through, we can't take DND veh's through them.  I can only immagine the number parked and running in any of the Oromocto Tim's waiting for the runner to go in and out with the required supplies.  I know a few pers cought going through in a DND plated vehicle and getting reported. 

The PAD at Salisbury sees the Occaisional SEA KING, and why not.

 

[Blackadder1916]

While it would be impossible for a fast food outlet to accommodate a helicopter at the drive through window, perhaps those who provided designated spaces (much like handicapped parking) would see an increase in this niche market.

 

[George Wallace]

I could see them getting in trouble if they went through a drive through, we can't take DND veh's through them.  I can only immagine the number parked and running in any of the Oromocto Tim's waiting for the runner to go in and out with the required supplies.  I know a few pers cought going through in a DND plated vehicle and getting reported. 

The PAD at Salisbury sees the Occaisional SEA KING, and why not.

Yeah.  I imagine it would be rather hard to pull up to the window and pass cash and items between the two windows. 

Either, or both, the crew or server would have to have an awful long reach to make up for the distance required to keep those oscillating things up top from hitting something.

 

[brandon_]

While it would be impossible for a fast food outlet to accommodate a helicopter at the drive through window, perhaps those who provided designated spaces (much like handicapped parking) would see an increase in this niche market.

How exactly would the crew see the sign from the air...? aha